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I just wanted to point something out about hybrids. I personally don't care for mixed breed birds but I dont really care what someone else does with their hard earned money. The point I wanted to bring out about the hybrid phrase is that they aren't really hybrids at all, they are mixed breeds, cross breeds, etc.... When you speak of hybrids in the animal world, it means that two different breeds of animals breed and produce an offspring with one or two extra chromosomes therefore leaving the offspring incapable of breeding any further. i.e. the offspring are sterile. If we were really doing hybrids in the macaw world I wouldnt see any problem with it because a true hybrid would stop with the offspring. If people want to play with hybrids why don't they take their $15,000 hyacinth and breed it with lets say a peking duck, and try and get that hyaduck to reproduce. I can tell you with certainty that it will never happen!!!!

hy·brid
Pronunciation: \ˈhī-brəd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin hybrida
Date: 1601
1: an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera


just my $.02
David

Mr.Jones,

I don't necessarily agree with your posting in it's entirety.

There are scientific "Laws" and "Rules"

Laws are absolute and found in all cases. Laws stand up in an "every" case scenario and therefore result in a LAW.

Rules are generally considered "in most cases." Rules have exceptions and therefore will not become a LAW. Rules are used to explain why things happen but are not the "only cause" of certain instances.

In hybrids certain rules apply that explain why some pairs can NOT have offspring. As a general rule one should not take for CERTAIN that ALL offspring are capable of producing further offspring (second generation, third, ETC.) If they do, they should be considered the "Exception."

Other genetic imbalances often take place, and by doing such one should consider these results as well, according to the RULE. In other words be prepared to offer a lifetime of support for these unfortunate and miss guided attempts at human intervention with different SPECIES combinations. If left alone nature would provide an outcome but that result would not be kindred to what we as aviculturists would want to put forward in our endeavors.


Dutch
Shelby Township, Michigan 48315

Wow MFids, you put a lot of thought in that didn't you? I appreciate the info, it was helpful. The point I was trying to get across is that when you breed two macaws of different species, why do we use the term hybrid? When two different breeds of dogs breed we call them heinz 57, mixed breed, etc.... Why don't we do the same in the bird world. When it all boils down the two different species of macaws are in fact mutts are they not? Are we crossing these on purpose to get something desirable? i.e. f2 labradoodle. We cross these the first time a straight cross and then breed the offspring back to the pure bred to get the supposedly hypoallergenic properties of the poodle. I just don't see us doing that in the bird world. The point I was trying to get across is if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, it must be a duck. its a cross breed, mixed breed, etc.......... The persons post right before yours was a lot more informative in stating that there are rules and laws whichis what you are trying to point out. Every thing you were showing crosses on were basically in the same species. I didn't see any example of a cat breeding a dog, which would be a hybrid.

thanks for the information,
David

I don't agree with the idea, but someone else did bring up a similar point, saying that if two species could hybridize, does that not make them the same species? If they were seperate species then they could not reproduce... but then again at the time I didn't bring up the tiger/lion thoughts, or the zebra/horse/donky! (which I plan on asking them about, too!)

From all that I know, we use the term hybrid when speaking about two seperate species that have crossbred, such as a lion and tiger. When we mix two separate dog breeds together, we, simply, call them mutts, because dogs came from one species of wolf, the timber wolf, and then we bred various traits into or out of them to create a breed that could be defined by certain characteristics. The main difference may be that you can't go into the wild and find packs of labs, or poodles or whatever running about... but you CAN find flocks of parrots. The only wild dogs I've heard about, that have become their own seperate species, would be the dingoes of Australia, which would imply that they are descendents of the timber wolf, as well (although I have not actually looked into the subject, not having a reason to, so it may be something I'll research if I can find any info on! which, with what limited info I've read from Wikipedia suggests that, although mentions that Dingos are not restricted to Australia alone)

We do go about calling mutts designer dogs, and giving them spiffy names... usually a combination of the parents names.... but I'd doubt that anyone would call a bulldog x shih-tzu mix a bullsh*t... likewise, we do similar things with some of the macaw hybrids.... such as the catalinas, harlequins, camelots, etc....

Short and simple though, hybrids denotes that two species have been mixed, while mutts denotes that two breeds have been mixed.... thus, the need to understand the difference between breeds (which are all one species, within one genus) and species (all seperate species, that may or may not be within the same genus).

All breeds of dogs can breed with eachother because they are all descended from the same species... but not all species can hybridize because given time, their genes mutate and they grow further apart from the main species, thus subspecies may become separate species, and given time the two species may then no longer be able to reproduce. An example may be that dogs (wolves) and cats originated from the same ancestors (both mammals, both predators) and thousands of years ago may have been able to reproduce together, but over time the two species drifted so far apart that they are no longer even able to reproduce together, and have thus created separate behaviors as well as reproductive systems (there's a reason why female cats scream when two cats mate.... thus now making it impossible for the two to hybridize). Now, I don't really know if cats and dogs (wolves) were ever able to reproduce together, but that, hopefully, points out the difference between breeds and species...




By what your telling me though, by your view, tigers and lions must be the same species because they can reproduce and create offspring... yet this contradicts your point, as some offspring are fertile and others are sterile. The same goes for hybridizing horses, zebras, and donkeys.

You are also pointing out to me that since most, if not all, macaw species can reproduce and create fertile offspring then they must be the same species... yet I am pointing out to you that when we get to 3rd-4th generation offspring, these birds are becoming sterile.

Thus, I am wondering if you can explain these incidents to me that would prove that those species that have hybridized are in fact the same species and not separate ones.