Carl is still throwing up

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Re: Carl is still throwing up

Postby Bluesbird Exotics on Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:30 am

Yogurt made with live cultures is a good probiotic for mammals, but not for birds, according to a Florida vet with an excellent reputation. Here is an earlier discussion of this, with the vet's explanation: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52602&hilit=yogurt

I feed each of my larger (than cockatiel) birds a small dab of yogurt each day for calcium and to train them for easy delivery of meds if ever they need any. I've asked my vets on many occasions if this is a good idea, and they feel it is, but suggest keeping the dab small. The yogurt-making process "converts" the finished product into something that is NOT dairy, so it is not difficult for parrots to digest.


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  • Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby bostonbudgie on Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:27 am

    As you can see from the date of this post this situation has been going on for a very long time.
    For awhile he seemed fine but he throws up more than ever. I feel kind of mean not doing anything but to take him for a crop wash will probably kill him.(he is over 10 years old)
    I really feel it is may be a fungus in his crop. I am tempted to give him an antifungal med to try to see if that helps.(itraconazole at .05ml twice a day for 2 weeks) (One of my tiels was on it with the dosage of .1ml twice a day for two weeks. Carl is half the weight of the teil)
    thoughts?
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby Patti In Oz on Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:50 pm

    Treating Carl with a med that doesn't address what the actual cause is could actually do more harm than good. I would only consider that as a last ditch effort. Also consider that almost all medications are going to have some effect on Carl's liver and kidneys, so at his age I would have concerns that any unnecessary meds are going to create other problems. Giving him any sort of probiotics as others have suggested is a good thing though. It won't cause harm. The treatment of choice for thrush/yeast here is a medication called Nystatin. It's given orally and goes straight through the bird and isn't absorbed into the bloodstream at all. Maybe that's one to speak to your vet about? You mentioned in an earlier post that his tongue is white....is it the entire inside of his mouth or just his tongue? One of the first things I do when I get a rescue (from the wild) in to care is to open the beak and look at the oral mucosa (the lining of the mouth and tongue) if they are pale, then the bird is dehydrated. Are you weighing Carl? Is his weight within normal range for a budgie? If he isn't cooperative enough to weigh, can you check the keel bone and see if he is thin? I've just read this thread for the first time, and my first thought (after fungal infection) was some sort of obstruction. I had a similar experience when I was in human nursing. I cared for profoundly mentally retarded adults, and we had a girl that suddenly began vomiting every time we fed her. She had a feeding tube directly into her stomach, but we also fed her small amounts by mouth. Anything that went into her GI tube was fine, but anything given by mouth came straight back out. It turned out that she had managed to swallow the cap off of a pen and it was blocking her esophogus..... Since Carl is still pooping it's obvious that a complete blockage isn't the prob, but a partial blockage is possible.
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby Patti In Oz on Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:30 pm

    I've thought of a couple of contacts here in Aus that might help you and your vet. The first is for Healesville Sanctuary.... http://www.australianwildlifecentre.org.au/ When I lived in Victoria they were always very approachable and helpful with questions relating to the treatment of Aussie natives. They might be able to give you some additional feedback. When I used them as a resource the vets were absolutely fantastic, and never charged me a cent. There is also Anne Fowler.... http://www.usyd.edu.au/alumni/images/co ... cience.pdf Anne is without a doubt the most knowlegable and approachable vet I have ever worked with. It's been a few years since I've worked with any of these people, but unless things have changed I am sure they would be happy to liase with your vet.
    Patti Johnson
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    Breeder of IRNs, Greencheek Conures, Cockatiels, Rainbow Musk and Scaley Lorikeets, Mulgas, Princesses, and Grass Parrots (Red Rumps)
    Owner of 30 + parrots including "Peanut Butter" a 30 year old Galah and a couple of spoilt rotten SI Eclectus
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby bostonbudgie on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:04 am

    Thank you Patty in oz.
    The first vet thought it might be megabacteria and she prescribed ampotercin .2ml twice a day for 2 weeks! .2ml was a HUGE amount to give to a budgie and I thought I would end up drowning Carl. His crop could not hold that much fluid even though I gave it to him painstakenly slow .
    Carl looks normal weigh wise. The second vet also thought it could be an obstruction, but again, she couldn't determine it unless she did a crop flush.
    It is amazing how much this budgie throws up.I am sort of damned if I do damned if I don't no matter what I do.
    I do have probiotic that I can put in his water
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby Patti In Oz on Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:50 am

    I have actually been thinking a lot about little Carl since first reading this thread. I don't envy you one bit! I had a thought about an alternative to something as invasive as a crop flush. I would certainly love some feedback on my suggestion prior to you trying this though. I have very little exprience with budgies specifically, so this is just based on general bird knowlege. If Carl isn't thin...I wouldn't even consider this if he is...but if he's reletively stable healthwise other than the vomiting I don't believe this would be harmful.

    BUT PLEASE GET SOME FEEDBACK FROM OTHER MEMBERS AND PREFERABLY YOUR VET FIRST...

    Remove Carls food dish last thing at night. Give him time to process what he's eaten, so basically you are starting with his crop empty first thing in the morning.
    Give Carl a very small amount of food. Just a beakful or two. I am sure he will be keen to eat and will finish it off quickly...then watch and see if it comes back up.
    If not...wait an hour and give him just a couple more beakfuls. If he has a partially blocked crop, then if he only gets a small amount at a time, I would think that it
    might not come back up. I'm not suggesting this as a permanant solution, but as a possible way to work out if he does have a partial blockage.

    Does that make sense to anyone else?
    Patti Johnson
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    Texas Ex-Pat
    10+ years aviculturalist and wildlife rescuer
    Breeder of IRNs, Greencheek Conures, Cockatiels, Rainbow Musk and Scaley Lorikeets, Mulgas, Princesses, and Grass Parrots (Red Rumps)
    Owner of 30 + parrots including "Peanut Butter" a 30 year old Galah and a couple of spoilt rotten SI Eclectus
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby fuzzy on Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:46 am

    Yes, it makes sense to me... but as you say it would be hard to continue with this long term. Would an X-ray show a partial blockage? What does the vet think about a crop flush at his age? Or what about looking in his crop through a tube under anaesthetic or is that impossible?
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    Re: Carl is still throwing up

    Postby bostonbudgie on Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:28 am

    The vet was really reluctant of doing anything invasive to Carl because of his age. Even handling him was really stressful to him.
    BTW Carl was also a "rescue" budgie from a hoarder. He has never learned to "step up' but I let him out of his cage and show him his cage and he will go in. He has learned not to be afraid of me and will let me feed him millet or cooked egg whites.
    I am waiting to see any fresh vomit so I can check it under my microscope. Lately he has only been throwing up at night. BTW my vet also suggested a possible impact and to wait til his crop empties and then feel his crop for anything hard. I've done that and felt a small bit but it is still inclusive of weather it is an impaction or left over seeds.
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