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My niece has a GSC2 that she got when he was a baby still being hand feed . About 6 months after she got him her dog passed away. She was upset and crying alot of the time . Her Zoe started to pluck his chest and then one morning she got up and he was bleeding. Off to the vet they went . They put a collar on him and then tried to take it off a few months later. NO LUCK !! He mutilated himself again. It has been 3 years with the collar on and off. It is off now for the 4th time his record is now 20 days without doing any damage to himself. Does anyone know if he will ever be collar free ?

I think one of the things that happen when birds display an extremely distructive behaviour like mutilating is that it has been unknowingly reinforced by the human or humans and one of the worst behaviours to stop is one that has been intermittently reinforced. For example, one day she sees him pick at his chest and she runs up to him all freaked out (as most of us would be), then another day she has learned she needs to ignore the behaviour (easier said than done) but she tries and then another day she can't handle it anymore and runs up to him again. This is called intermittent reinforcement. This makes the behaviour stronger and much more difficult to eliminate. Ignoring a destructive behaviour is not the way to go because 99% of us don't have the expertise to carry it out to a successful conclusion. The better way to go is DRI or differential reinforcement of an incompatible behaviour which simply means that he can't tear at his flesh if he is doing something else such as engaging in healthy activities (destroying toys, playing games, and getting positive reinforcement for healthy behavior such as this).

It is a very complex problem that will need a very complex solution starting from the ground up.

What does he eat?

Bev

valkrum35 wrote:... Off to the vet they went . They put a collar on him and then tried to take it off a few months later...

Not all vets are equally knowledgeable about the mysteries of plucking and mutilating. In the 3+ yrs this poor bird has been suffering, many of the infections that can cause the behavior would have worsened and killed him. Some though worsen slowly without treatment and might still be worth considering, including giardia and maybe even aspergillosis.

If she were my niece, I'd help her find the BEST avian vet possible and have a battery of tests run. Sometimes the best vet is only available via consultation rather than in person, but that is done every day and often has wonderful results. Nod if your niece is interested in more detailed information on how this is done. Or she might ask her vet to arrange it. While this is being done, I would ask the vet to treat the bird with Ronidazole for possible giardia without even testing for it.

http://www.aviannetwork.com/articles/featherpick.htm

Praying, Paca

Good article Paca!

Here is one that you might find usefull.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 170235.htm

Thanks, I've saved it. AAV incoming president Scott Echols feels that feather destruction is often caused by a combination of stress reaction to the boredom of captivity, diet, environmental allergens, and inherited predisposition. That's a hard nut to crack, but we MUST keep trying. To write it off as "behavioral" without intensive medical care is IMO dreadfully irresponsible.

THanks for all your input. She has taken him for all the tests. The vet she uses in one of the top ten avian vets in the east. She put in air purifiers in her bird room. The only thing I keep telling her is get rid of plugins . They are not in her bird room but i think it can still have bad effects on birds. And her for that matter

Reading this and two things popped out at me... Air purifier... what kind? model? Brand? Not all air purifiers are safe around birds, and some can do more harm than good.

Second, plugins. Bad. Period.

If she's using plugins, what other harmful things could she be using? Self cleaning oven? Hair dryer? Toasters? Grills? (George Foreman for example) Any one of those could possible have PTFE or PFOA related chemicals in them (think, Teflon). Then, cleaning chemicals or air fresheners. Most are not good for birds.

Then we can go into diet... could be allergies... or an insufficient diet.. birds will need some amount of seeds (sprouted, dried, or nuts), maybe a good pellet mix (NO DYES please), and lots of fresh foods (veggies, beans, rice, etc)

Next would be boredom... does he have enough toys to destroy? Ones to keep his brain thinking? Ones that make noise? And there's a lot of safe tree branches that one can get fresh (so long as they have not been treated) that he could be given to destroy

Or what about lighting? Does he get to go outside in his cage for a few hours each day? Or does he have full spectrum lighting?

Or bathing? Is his skin dry? Maybe he needs daily bathes? Or bathed twice a day...

Maybe it's other people or other animals that are bothering him? And he gets nervous so he mutilates?

Or maybe there was a change? Change of furniture? A move? A hair dye? A hair cut?


A full avian vet checkup is best to rule out medical causes, and although it does sound like it could be directly linked to the owners sorrow after loosing her dog but I can't help but think there may be more to it than just that.



I've never had any issues with perfectly feathered birds plucking or mutilating, however I have been given two mutilators... The first, Noel, a cherry headed conure. She seemed to get better in a calmer home (no cats or dogs.. although we have both now, she rarely ever sees the cats or dog), and helped with a change of diet, a change in her cage, and a buddy... as Noel bonded to Casey, a cockatiel. Now, the only times she usually mutilates is either when I'm terribly upset, or I do something to upset her (which could be having to put up with Charlie the mitred! or maybe it's someone she doesn't know doing work in the room that upsets her). Otherwise though she's usually pretty good about NOT mutilating... however, in her first home (that I know of) she WAS attacked by a ferret, and in her second, although loved, was neglected. She was also around cats and dogs frequently, and I know she DOES NOT like cats.

My second mutilator is a little more difficult. It's harder to pinpoint why she mutilates as I don't really know how she was cared for as much as Noel... I've had Noel since my 2nd year of owning birds (Dec 23rd, 2001- I had birds for 16 months by then) however I've known Kiwi since before I got my very first pet budgie. Back then it seemed like her family was cared for decently enough minus the fact that the parents (of the household) smoked. I don't really remember her mutilating back then, but then I was pretty young (12) and may not have noticed. Still, the history I know of her is that Kiwi, and her mate Pistachio, were found at an animal shelter around 1998. Ages then I don't know. I've had them for just over 2 years now, although I have rehomed their son. The family (Kiwi, her mate Pistachio, and their offspring Kirby and Sunshine) came to me in an 18"x18"x46" California Ferret Cage that smelled worse than a fresh ashtray! It seemed to help when they came here, got better food, a better cage, and Kiwi did stop mutilating and grew in a set of tail feathers (which were later destroyed, grew back in, and destroyed again). Now Kiwi is cage free with the other tiels, budgies, and bourke in an 11' x 14' room. She was doing pretty well, too, until the past few days where she has started mutilating her wings again (I can tell by the blood on the side of her face).


So, through my experiences, you can certainly try and alleviate the mutilation, however there is no guarantee that you can get the mutilation to completely stop. You can say that it can become a bad habit and certain things will trigger a bird to mutilate...

Check out this site www.thesockbuddy.com

Freemsuz

There is certainly a chance that he will be collar free but only if the problem has been resolved. I don't personally think that mutilation is a behavior problem very often although it can be to a point.

As you can see from everyone's posts there is a lot of consider with a plucking or mutilating bird. Everything that has been suggested here should be considered, intermittent reinforcement hypothesis, air purifier, plug ins, diet etc .

You mentioned that all tests were done but when were they done? If tests were done at the onset that's at least 3 yrs ago. Some tests should be done again. Also what tests? Besides blood work, viral testing a skin scraping should be done. If that shows nothing then a skin biopsy can be done...they quick and simple. Also a careful look at the diet is needed. My personal feeling is that allergies don't often cause mutilation. I have seen them result in plucking and even cracked skin but not mutilation. Diet problems can result in deficiencies or toxicities however and either of those could have the potential of causing mutilation.

I hope having the collar off lasts.....no more mutilation! that would be the best news! If he does start in again however its time to consider the suggestions given...even if it means repeating some tests. Putting a collar on doesn't get to the bottom of the problem. Can you imagine if you had an itch that you would scratch so badly you made yourself bleed but rather than find the problem you were kept from scratching that itch for 3 yrs?

Good luck! I'm crossing my fingers that all stays good....no more chewing!

Shauna

Shauna wrote:... Besides blood work, viral testing a skin scraping should be done. If that shows nothing then a skin biopsy can be done...

Shauna, would you tell us more about the viral testing? Is it done via skin scraping? My quaker's 18mo hx of minor plucking took a dire turn 2 mos ago. My excellent avian vet says her skin looks very healthy, thank goodness. She completed 30 days of Ronnizol yesterday, had 10 days of Meloxicam, and has another 10 days of 30-day drops of Booster. The crisis has abated, but she doesn't seem cured, still pulling a dzn tiny pins more days than I like.

Her bloodwork looks great -- just repeated 2 mos ago. At 107 grams, she's been on rice pellets for almost a yr, Volkman's seed, brown rice, quinoa, broccoli, carrots w/tops, peppers, chard, Romaine. She's 7 and came to me 2.5 yrs ago fully feathered, so it's something I'm doing

TIA!

Just general viral testing which should be done on any bird at some point..preferably before or just after bringing them home such as PBFD. Other tests that might be done if blood work or something signals a need may be to test for something like asper....but no viral testing is not part of a skin scraping. Skin scraping may reveal a bacterial or fungal problem that could be treated.

Many Quakers do OK on pellets but some don't seem too. I know rice pellets are suppose to help but they are full of synthetic supplements....so you gamble IMO if those supplements are in the right proportion for that bird or not. Pellets also contain vit. A which most parrots never ...never...or rarely eat any as part of their natural diet. Does the Volkmans contain vitamin supplementation as well? If so then she's getting way too much of a good thing. And many pellets contain too much vit. A and not enough vit. E according to many conversations I had with wildlife nutritionist Debra McDonald when I was in Japan. I can feel eyes crossing about the vit. A statement but the thing is... Wild parrots eat beta carotene which is a precursor to vit. A . The difference is that vit. A is stored in the liver and if too much is eaten could become toxic OR if out of balance a bird could end up deficient in one of the other fat soluble vitamins. Beta carotene on the other hand is consumed daily and converted by the liver into vit. A on an as needed by the body basis. See the difference...its huge!

I helped some Quakers that were naked and skin was cracking and bleeding. We put them on a mash diet with organic ingredients and they feathered out....and the key thing is that they stayed feathered. (its not all that unusual with a change of diet or environment for a bird to feather out....often giving new owners the idea that they were the answer... but then revert back to its plucking a few months later). I have a mash diet recipe if you're interested...e-mail me. Hypo allergenic grains are: millet, buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth, rice . Quinoa and amaranth are better sources of protein and nutrition than rice. Hulled barley (not pearled) and oats may be ok too.

Also when weather permits....getting birds safely outside can sometimes do magic. These are naturally fresh air sunshine creatures that sometimes end up never getting outside which is really sad.

Shauna

To let everyone know it has been 2 and a half months since the collar has been off and Zoey is still a fully feathered bird no plucking or mutilation . I told her about the plug ins and now we are just sitting and watching. I know it is not a boredom issue because she spends about 100.00 for toys every 2 or 3 weeks for just that bird. But all it well at this point and time