upatsix.com - Your Source For Pet Bird Information

I am new to this site and birds in general. If you find my hello post you can get the details there.

I have a few questions that I am sure have been covered on this board. If you feel like replying I would be grateful. If not maybe you can at least post a link to the other threads that have discussed these things.

In no particular order:

1. I am not a big baby talk person. I do not baby talk to Harley but I read I am supposed to chat with him to get him used to my voice. I just find myself trying to connect and communicate but it is not easy for me. Any suggestions?

2. Nails or beak trimming. Should I be worried? Harley does have a cement perch in his cage and I'm read that those help in keeping the nails trimmed. He also seems to chew on some wood. I've only have him over a week and I notice that a couple of nails are long enough to start twisting. They don't seem to impede him or bother me too much when he's on my arm so I am torn.

3. Wood. I live in the country and I have lots of wood hanging out in my yard. Some for fires and others left over from Ike. Can I use some for him to chew on? Should I worry about the type of tree? Should I worry about whether it is fresh or dried out?

4. This might go with the first question but I would love for this bird to be sweet and cuddly. Right now he is extremely bitey. What kind of activities games toys are the best to help him come out of his shell. If that is the phrase. I find that he is pretty fearful of just about everything and doesn't like to play with the items I have bought so far. He doesn't seems to really like me much but when we are hanging out all he wants to do is step up onto my arm. Today I noticed he let me touch his chest for about half a second. So maybe I am making progress? I want to take him everywhere with me. I just walked out to my car with him on my arm and got so worried that if he jumped off my arm I would never be able to get him back. So if he is not wanting me to touch him how will I ever get a harness on him? Of course it is cold so for Houston so no trips to tthe park right now so it is not something I really have to worry about. However I am doing some winter gardening and it would be nice to have him hang out with me.

5. Bathing. I have been taking him in the shower with me. I have tried to get him under the actual stream of water but he doesn't seem to like that much. So instead I set him in the bathroom so he can soak up the steam and moisture. I read that that is just as good as an actual shower. Since I've been doing that he is preening a lot more. I take it as a sign that he is feeling better or he is happpier. Maybe?

6. I cannot get him out of his cage at all. He is extremely protective of his space in there. The only way I can get him to step up on my arm is to let him climb out. Let him squawk at the top of the cage for a few minutes. Let him lunge at me a few times. I then sort of have to corner him and give him no option but to step up onto my arm. There has to be a better way. Is is possible to get him out of his cage without the fight and without tricking him?

7. He rocks from one leg to the other and rattles his beak across the cage. He’ll do the rocking thing even on my arm. I have read that this can be a sign of boredom. Or is this normal? If not please tell me all the things I can do to help him with his boredom.

8. I am not scared of him but rather scared of doing something harmful. Will I get over this?

These are just a few of the questions I thought of off the top of my head. I am sure there will be more.

Thank you in advance for your help. I know Harley will appreciate it.

Jim and Harley

Hi Jim I will try to answer some of your question
1. I always talk to Josie like she is a person or a friend when Im with her. Birds will learn to enter react with you in time if you talk in a friendly way. hi harley how you doing today , Hey buddy do you want out of your cage.That sort of thing. My bird josie has learned to ask for water just because when Im feeding her and getting clean water I always asked her do you want water. Now if she see me with a glass of water she will say." want water" and will drink if I put the glass up to her.
2. How old is he. If he is a young bird ,dont trim just file off the tips. The blood vein goes to almost the end of the nail when young. as they get older the nail hardens and the vein moves back. If you arent sure about how to do it. maybe there is a petstore or a vet that can help you with it .I just tip Josies nail. She will let me do a foot a day. I give Josie all the wood she wants to chew on, chewing trims the beak. In my area I use alder and oak and manznea. debarked and dried. Do not give wood that has been sprayed. You can look online for a list of oks and nots
4.It takes a while for a new bird to settle in. Bird have there own personalitys some are sweet so arent. Its albout building a trust bound. Sally Blanchard I think that is her name. Has book on understanding and working with your bird. I think her books would help you. I make sure Josies wings are always trimmed. I couldnt get her use to a harness. She would always fight it. I take Josie for sunning on the front porch , walks, and rides in the car. I clip six feather on each wing.
5. I started out by putting Josie on the shower door. She liked it so much she climbed down onto my arm one day. She dosent like a dirrect spray. I let the water hit my shoulder with my back to the shower. Josie is on my arm and water comes down like rain. Sometime she likes to get fully wet and other time just a little wet. she always climbs up on the door when she is done. Youve started right he does like it.
6. Josie likes walnuts. Find a treat that Harley likes. When you go to get him out of the cage offer him the treat and say step up. Try it slowly. If he goes for it ,praise him and just keep working with him
7. The rocking can be nervesness or boredom.Try singing and making a game out of it and rocking with him. Or if he is on his cage doing it turn on music and dance with him. This may sound funny to you but birds are more like 3 to 5 yr old and love something like this.
8. I do think some of sally blachard books my help you understand your bird better and build a trust. It sound like this is your first big bird. I dont know if you will ever get over your feel of concern.Read and learn as you can. I will be around if you have more questions. Mark

Today was both good and bad but your message helped me. I couldn't get Harley out of his cage for anything. When I finally did we had a great time hanging out. He loves walnuts. I thought instead of just giving them to him lets try and make it interactive. I got the big cap off my shaving cream and hid the nut in it and kept trying to get him to flip the cap over and find the nut. I guess he enjoyed it. That alone helped inspire me to think that I can do more things just like that and that will help us bond. I hope.

One thing just drives me crazy. When I see him zoning out scratching his head. I always tell him "Dude I'm here for ya." But he's so into it that I don't even think he hears me. LOL!

So I couldn't get out him out of his cage this afternoon. Once I did I think I found a way to help interact but of course as soon as I put him back in his cage for the night he literally got off my arm climbs around the metal door and proceeds to lung and act like he would take a hand off if he could. I said to him "Hey remember me? I was the one you were just hanging out with. The same one you even kissed with that crazy feeling tongue. Does that ring a bell?" He just kept trying to bite me through the bars. I hope I am not making that worse since I do not know how to fix that issue. Maybe it will go away with time?

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll either check at my local book stores or order them online.

Thanks again,

Jim and Harley

Hi Jim! Welcome to UAS and the wonderful world of macaws. Thank you for giving Harley a home for keeps Gosh, 3 homes in 3 years -- and maybe you weren't even counting the place where he hatched and spent his first few months. He must feel like every door is a revolving door, and everyone he begins to know disappears. What Mark said about the need to develop trust is very true and IMO your highest priority. The game with the bottle cap is clear evidence that you're up to the task. Macaws LOVE to play.

But making him come out of his cae when he'd rather not will do him more harm than good. Open his door, issue an invitation "Wanna come out?" and step away until he ventures forth. Then heap on the praise and let the games begin! We're so used to dogs and the way they're trained that we often completely miss the boat on how VERY different it is with birds. They are prey animals, instinctively prioritizing survival over all else. Here is a link I think will give you some helpful insights

http://www.naturalencounters.com/traini ... rrots.html

Harley's cage is, in his mind, the key to his survival in this unfamiliar place you've taken him to. His instincts tell him to guard it against all trespassers. Your staying back far enough from the cage to not distress him will earn you trust points. When you put him back onto his perch, withdraw speedily and take a few steps back to say Good night so he doesn't need to protect his nest.

Many people cling to the view (again from familiarity with dogs) of being alpha and teaching the bird that he's not in charge. The article at the link discusses the fallacy in this. What you said about taking bites might be part of this. Taking bites trains the bird to bite you. Not what you want. You want to avoid bites. Watch Harley's body language (his eyes, posture, way he holds his feathers) to understand what he's telling you he wants and doesn't want. When he tells you he doesn't want something, don't do it. When he sees that you're willing to observe and learn his language and respect his opinion, he'll use body language more and resort to biting less. Macaws though are very beaky and, in their excitement, often bite when they're just playing. You'll learn fast how this is very different from a bite meant to keep you away.

The rocking and head rubbing that worries you might be how Harley comforts himself. It might be a sign he's relaxed with you. Beak grinding is the same thing. First-time bird people are often worried there's something wrong with their bird's beak. Or the sound grates on them like the awful sound of cracking knuckles. Once you realize that beak grinding means your bird is happy and relaxed, the sound changes altogether and becomes music to your ears See if you can use this thought and observation of Harley's very subtle body language to decide whether his rocking and rubbing might be a good thing instead of a sign of distress.

Like Mark, I'm talking with my birds all the time, telling them what I'm doing and asking them qxs, which I don't require they answer, but sometimes they do When I serve food and water, I name it and ask if they want some. Meaning, when there's a fat cherry on top for dessert, I'd say "LOOK, Harley! It's a CHERRY!!!" When he comes out of his cage and is willing to sit on your arm, give him tours of the house. Walk to each window and give him a look out, let him tap his beak against the glass, and tell him some of the things you see outside. Since he's only 3 and not sexually mature, you could open closets and let him peek inside as you tell him what's in there -- "See, Harley, there are my clothes and shoes ..."

The best way to begin training Harley is described here: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/68 Have FUN!!!

Bluesbird Exotics wrote:The best way to begin training Harley is described here: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/68 Have FUN!!!

While I'll agree with Mark and almost everything BBE has said the above does bring into mind my "simple rule of thumb" to beware of so-called bird behaviorist's. These sort of people have a different agenda in mind then maybe what you might be seeking. I think it was Voren who created the term "Anthropomorphism" in his 2004 speech to the AFA Convention

http://www.voren.com/VorenLecture-2.pdf

In it he said, "For those that are unsure of its meaning, it refers to the Fantasy of Morphing a bird or animal into a human, within
your mind and assuming it feels, thinks and reacts like a human would in a similar situation."

"Their teachings and writings that are accessed on the internet by thousands, along with the supplemental and fanatical cry of many Rescue Facilities, have given the Animal Rights agenda everything they need to fashion a convincing argument of lies that grossly misinform the public as well as the politicians."

"This might sound as if --it should have been understood from the get go --but as Parrot Popularity grew, it also evolved. We came from an era 30 years ago when most parrot owners never expected their birds to do anything more than look pretty say a few words and step up on their finger or hand once in a while. Nor did the parrot owner always expect them to be tame. Tameness was something that was to be worked on if you wished and some looked for a dark eyed young bird because they were easier to tame."

"The result was the beginning of a new era in the pet trade. The transition from the sale of wild caught parrots that could be tamed --- to hand fed parrots that needed to be kept tame."

"But the behaviorists and the Animal Rights Fanatics that use their teachings have been applying--- [truncated] .... for their best sociological development." END QUOTATION- Voren 2004 Speech to AFA Convention delegates.

I think what Voren is trying to say here is that what is perceived to be behavioral issues to one person might be different to another based on the "actual parrot involved." He started sounding the alarm about so called behaviorists and their link to these Animal Rights Fruitcakes, and also exactly what is a well behaved parrot and what is not. I really like this guy and have studied him for years after this convention and found this link to be exactly what he was saying originally. Hence my "beware" warning.

Similarly, this so called "clicker training" in essence, involves depriving (or holding back) food given to the bird. The reward after a "click," and the bird doing what YOU want it to do, is the food that you would normally give the bird to sustain it's life. Not something I would in good conscience do with any of my birds or recommend that treatment to another.

Dutch

Here's a podcast with lots more good training ideas: http://www.petliferadio.com/ Click on Wings N Things. It has commercials at the beginning, but they're short. The actual podcast is long and full of useful, interesting information.

PurpleHeart wrote:... Similarly, this so called "clicker training" in essence, involves depriving (or holding back) food given to the bird. The reward after a "click," and the bird doing what YOU want it to do, is the food that you would normally give the bird to sustain it's life. Not something I would in good conscience do with any of my birds or recommend that treatment to another.

You might be surprised at how far your understanding is from the clicker training described at my link, Dutch. While you'd want to invite your macaw to spend a few minutes clicker training before a meal rather than right after one, there's nothing any closer to food deprivation involved.

The reward is whatever treat your bird will work for -- half a pine nut for many, a quarter of an almond -- nothing that comes close to your description of "food that you would normally give the bird to sustain it's (sic) life." A training session is 5, 10, 15 minutes if your bird is having fun working that long, meaning doing the trick for the treat reward. If the bird isn't interested or quickly loses interest, the session ends immediately.

The goal is to engage the bird in an activity that's considered fun by both the bird and the human. It teaches the human to do something interactive that does not involve rubbing on the bird, something most parrots don't enjoy the way humans often do.

An open mind can be very refreshing.

Offhand, the only wood that might be harmful is cherry because of the cyanide related poinsons in the leaves and twigs, and the pines might have too much resin. I know oak leaves are poisonous to some farm animals, and rhododendron bushes.

alhee wrote:Offhand, the only wood that might be harmful is cherry because of the cyanide related poinsons in the leaves and twigs, and the pines might have too much resin. I know oak leaves are poisonous to some farm animals, and rhododendron bushes.

• BL = blood abnormalities
• CNS = nervous system
• CV = cardiovascular
• CY = signs associated with cyanide poisoning
• GI = gastrointestinal
• IR = irritant
• RE = reproductive
• UR = urinary tract
COMMON NAME (All or part of the listed plant may be deemed hazardous.) SYMPTOMS
Autumn crocus or Meadow saffron GI
Avocado GI
Azalea GI
Baneberry GI
Beans:
Castor GI
Horse, Fava, Broad Java BL
Glory, Scarlet Runner CY
Mescal CNS
Rosary peas, Ind. Licorice GI
Bird of Paradise GI
Bleeding Heart or Dutchman's Breeches CNS
Bloodroot GI
Boxwood GI
Bracken Fern BL
Buckthorn GI
Bulb Flowers:
Amaryllis GI
Daffodil, Narcissus GI
Hyacinth GI
Iris GI
Caladium IR
Calla Lily IR
Cardinal Flower CNS
Chalice or Trumpet Vine GI
Cherry Tree CNS
Chinaberry Tree CNS
Christmas Candle or Rose GI
Clematis or Virginia Bower CNS
Coral Plant GI
Cowslip, Marsh Marigold CNS
Daphne GI
Death Camas CNS
Dieffenbachia, or Dumb Cane IR
Elderberry CNS
Elephants Ear or Taro IR
Eucalyptus Tree - not dried, dyed, treated CY*
Euonymus or Spindle Tree GI
False Hellebore CV
Firethorn, Pyracantha IR*
Four O'clock GI
Foxglove CV
Golden Chain CNS
Grass:
Broomcorn CY
Johnson CY
Sorghum CY
Sudan CY
Ground Cherry GI
Hemlock:
Poison CNS
Water CNS
Henbane CNS
Holly GI
Honeysuckle GI*
Horsechestnut or Buckeye GI
Horsetail CNS
Hydrangea CNS
Ivy, English, varieties GI*
Jack-in-the-pulpit or Ind. Turnip IR
Jasmine GI, CNS
Jimson Weed or Thornapple CNS
Kentucky Coffee Tree CNS
Lantana CNS
Larkspur CV
Lily-of-the-Valley CV
Locusts:
Black GI
Honey RE
Lord and Ladies or cuckoopint GI
Lupines or Bluebonnet CNS
Marijuana or Hemp CNS
Mayapple, Mandrake GI
Mistletoe GI
Mock Orange GI, CNS
Monkshood, Aconite CV
Moonseed CNS
Morning Glory CNS
Mushrooms - Amanita, others GI, CNS
Nettles CNS, CV
Nightshades:
Deadly GI, CNS
Black GI, CNS
Garden GI, CNS
Woody GI, CNS
Bittersweet GI, CNS
Eggplant GI, CNS
Jerusalem Cherry GI, CNS
Potato shoots GI, CNS
Oaks GI
Oleander CV
Periwinkle CNS
Philodendrons:
Split Leaf IR*
Swiss Cheese IR*
Pigweed BL
Poinsettia IR*
Poison Ivy IR
Poison Oak: Western, Eastern IR
Pokeweed or Inkberry GI
Privet GI
Rain Tree GI
Ranunculus, Buttercup CNS
Red Maple GI
Rhubarb leaves UR
Rhododendrons, Azaleas, Laurels GI
Sandbox Tree GI
Skunk Cabbage IR
Sorrel, Dock CNS
Snowdrop GI
Spurges: GI, IR
Pencil Tree
Snow on the Mountain
Candelabra Tree
Crown of Thorns
Sweet Pea and related peas CNS
Tansy Ragwort CNS
Tobacco, Tree Tobacco CNS
Vetch CY
Virginia Creeper GI
Wisteria GI
Yews CV, GI
Yellow Jasmine CNS

* These plants have been used in aviaries without reported problems
and may be considered of questionable hazard to birds.

As for BBE's comment_ I do have an open mind, but totally REJECT your reccomendation of clicker training, you link is not informative but only leads the reader to another site where food is deprived in order to "Click" and "Reward." a trainign I find to be not only gastly but inhumane to any parrot. Which leads me back to my initial quotation about "why!" I know you are one of those Anthropomorphists, and it disgusting how you continue to bring up that (IMHO) stupid clicker training. You continue to bring this into a main stream aviculture discussion and I will continue to debunk it.

Dutch

PurpleHeart wrote:... I do have an open mind, but totally REJECT your reccomendation of clicker training, you link is not informative but only leads the reader to another site where food is deprived in order to "Click" and "Reward." a trainign I find to be not only gastly but inhumane to any parrot. Which leads me back to my initial quotation about "why!" I know you are one of those Anthropomorphists, and it disgusting how you continue to bring up that (IMHO) stupid clicker training. You continue to bring this into a main stream aviculture discussion and I will continue to debunk it.

I don't know what you're reading, but the first paragraph at the Yahoo BirdCLICK site says: We teach using all-positive methods (no force, coercion or food deprivation). Feel free to not use clicker training on your birds, Dutch.

Teehee, I've never been called an Anthropomorphist before

Hi Jim If Harley is a rescue bird so to speak. Take if very slow. Dont forse him. when you open the door to the cage and he doesnt seem to want to come out. Set a chair next to the side of the cage ,set down and hold a walnut in your hand . Talk to him saying. Hi Harley . How are you today. Ive got a walnut for you when you want it. Show it to him and set quiet and keep talking . It may take a while. If he comes to get it make it easy for him like put out your arm and tell him step up , let him take the nut and praise him. he has to learn to trust you. I did this sort of thing thirty years ago with a amazon that had been kept in a 1 foot cube cage with a 2 yr. old and a 4yr. old childern banging on the table to see the bird climb around in a circle. I bought him on the spot and brought him home and moved him into a big cage. He was so frighened. Each day before I fed I would open the door of his cage and set in a chair next to it with a hand full of sunflower seeds. He was crazy for them. I would set there for 15 min then feed and water. His seed mix didnt have sunflower seeds in it. About the third day he came over to eat the seeds out of my hand. It was a very slow building relationship . He was a nervous bird. Hope this story helps . Good Luck Mark

WOW!!!!

So when I signed up I lurked around and read a lot of posts. I can clearly remember thinking geez I don't want to get on PurpleHeart's bad side. LOL!!

Here it is my first thread on the board and I got him to reply.

All of this was helpful though. If not a bit overwhelming (PurpleHeart).

My personal thought is, I am going to try whatever works for Harley. If clicker training works, great. If good old fashion reward and praise works, great. I am not going to demand from myself or Harley to accept one way as the end all be all. I've got to be open minded about this sort of stuff. So instead of the knee jerk reaction being whoa this PurpleHeart person is very obnoxious I will think well he is passionate about his birds and knows what he is talking about and I see his point. It may or may not work for me but I'll remember what was said here.

Maybe after reading more and talking to more bird owners like you all here I will use a hybred of all these things. If it works and Harley is happy, then I am am happy too.

Well said, Jim!!! I think you and Harley will do well

Here's another video I think you'll enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfDFa2sQj1s The third singing 'zon in Leno's contest -- and the winner! -- is from Steve Martin's Natural Encounters (my first link for you), with his trainer, Barbara Heidenreich, star of the podcast I posted for you yesterday. Shhhh, Steve and Barbara are two of those evil folks you've been warned to ignore. Notice how depressed and deprived the poor bird looks http://www.youtube.com/user/GoodBirdInc

Harleys_Dad wrote:So when I signed up I lurked around and read a lot of posts. I can clearly remember thinking geez I don't want to get on PurpleHeart's bad side. LOL!! If not a bit overwhelming (PurpleHeart). So instead of the knee jerk reaction being whoa this PurpleHeart person is very obnoxious.

Jim,

Your comments lead me to question the intent of your post to begin with. If your seeking entertainment and funny stories with anecdotes I suggest you post them as such. If your searching true answers to your problems from noteworthy contributors and experienced folks in aviculture you have to look no further. Up at Six has some of the best contributors found anywhere. Along with the expert advice, you will find those who promulgate "old wives tales," lies, deceit, and they fashion those arguments into what at first sounds convincing, BUT LACKS ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OR DATA. Like I mentioned before, this makes for a funny story, enjoyable reading, or a cute little video, but bears no substantive merit when applied purely to aviculture.

These old wives stories when given the weight of so many postings (artificially beefing them up I might ad, by answering so many times on subjects they know so little about) leaves the reader a disproportionate sense of experience or credence and further exposure (by virtue of web based search engines) to future outrageous ramblings. Hence you find yourself here in the middle of.

An old college professor told me once that it is not the amount of times that you write a paper on a given subject that makes you an expert on it, but rather the quality of the material you first wrote and the lack of any feasible argument against it. Hint: look at their postings, and decide for yourself where the scientific data is?

They totally lack any citation of a scientific nature, data to back up their nonsense, or any feasible argument posed in a constructive manor. And one may wonder if they know what a citation is to begin with (MLA, APA, Chicago CBE, Columbia,) as the question has been asked and left unanswered on many occasions. They substitute someone else's work, someone else's opinion, or a funny story which might include a video of one or more things. But from one commercial I am reminded, "Where's the Beef?"

And if you did read my past postings you will find that I have consistently demanded that these so-called facts be either supported by hard evidence or I follow with disclaimers that the wrong advice is given. My only intent is that a casual reader not apply these techniques without further study or examination based on scientific principle. What these folks don't understand is that in aviculture, we have much to loose. Laws in so many states are being crafted by those who know so little about birds. These politicians are listening to "folklore," "innuendo," "gossip," and other forms of experience not generally accepted in aviculture. We are unique with our species and totally unlike dogs, cats, or other so called pets that the bridge is just too far to jump unless you take things from these people for granted and fail to stick up with "what's right" and scientific.

You can go back to everyone of my postings and find this to be true and accurate assessment of a "scientific approach" to aviculture. By reading them, it may not be enjoyable; as in the case of the Canadian fellow who was exporting birds [CITIES Classified] out of the USA without the proper permits and I had to report him to ICE, or others where I was either too late in suggesting that the bird be taken to a vet or many others. I will not sacrifice the life of a bird (yours, mine, or anybody else's) to be the most popular person here on Up at Six. You are going to get my opinion if I feel it necessary, whether you like it not, if you feel it on topic or not, and don't take it personally because I might not be addressing it to you, but for others who may come across it through the internet.

Now for personal matters, specially the fact that you own a hybrid, you will find me to one of your allies in defending your right to own, breed, or otherwise posses these beautiful creatures. There are many (old school aviculturists) that feel (and are working behind the scenes right now to create laws that will outlaw them) they should not be allowed period. So being new to the board may I suggest you know the people before you cast such a wide net of dispersion upon them. May I also point out that you can identify certain people as an "enemy" and never have to read their postings again. I have used this in the past and continue to add names all the time.

As for your future questions and postings I will understand you to be not interested in my input, and will regard you as a person (like those who you allied yourself with) who is online for entertainment, and not for the serious discussion of aviculture.

Dutch

P.S.- finished just in time for the Army-Navy game, go Navy beat Army! (lol Rhonda)

PurpleHeart wrote:... May I also point out that you can identify certain people as an "enemy" and never have to read their postings again. I have used this in the past and continue to add names all the time...

It would be such a welcome blessing for you and me if you would put me on that list, please, PLEASE!!!