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I was told that putting ACV in my birds water would keep the bacteria down in the summertime.

I was also told that you could worm chickens with it.

Does anyone here use ACV and how much to a gallon of water. Any other hints would be welcomed.

Parrotrancher
Florida

When I bought my eclectus and then my green-cheek amazon from my breeder, he reccomended 1/4 cup per gallon of Fort Bragg organic vinegar to their water and I have done it for 5 years with no problem. As a matter of fact, it seems to have really cut down on my eclectus' yeast infections.

I personally do this:

My vet told me l tablespoon ACV to l gal. of (**bottled or purified) water. Use this in place of bird's water. Store excess water in refrig. Change (**bird's) water daily. I have used this if a bird gets watery droppings and does not respond to antibiotics (prescribed). It works and is safe. It can be used for 2 weeks. A friend of mine had her vet tell her to use it all the time because she has 2 parrots that keep getting giardia (for some unknown reason -- her bird's are immaculate!).

Also it is a good idea to add a few drops of this mixture to your baby bird handfeeding formula. It also helps prevent yeast infections, especially in cockatiels which are notorious for candida.

Of course, as usual, check this out with your vet first...

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Chat Disclaimer: My comments on this site are of my own opinion. My intent is a friendly chat, to promote the welfare and proper care of parrots, offer helpful bird advice, to alert this site to issues that may result in financial loss, or issues (pro or con) that may arise concerning obtaining, purchasing, or adopting pet birds/parrots. My intent is not to criticize or hurt anyone else's feelings. If anyone thinks my comments pertain to them specifically, I apologize to that person in advance. If you object to my comments, private message me so as not to offend sensitive members on this site. Thank you.





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1 tablespoon to 1 gallon filtered water... i do it about once a month for three days in a row.

it's good for people too!

Gee I didn't realize that apple cider vinegar could help my parrot if she had a yeast infection. I actually use apple cider vinegar to clean their cages with.
I mix it with water because I was told it would kill any bacteria on the cage from my birds droppings. I mix about 1 cup vinegar to one gallon of water but that
is just to clean thier cages never thought of trying to get them to drink it. So I have ready the post and still unsure how often I should give the apple cider vinegar
with water mix to my parrot. I give them clean water constantly. All my birds seem to like to dunk their food in their water dishes before eating it. Some times my alexandrian just drops it into the water and leaves it there. Usually doesnt take long for their water to turn nasty. Should I give my birds the acv mixture everyday or just a few days out of the week?

Giving ACV to your birds is a bunch of BS! ACV is ACID! Giving ACV to your birds is an Ole wives tale.

Thing is nobody has the right amounts to give to birds who by their own weight and size would prescribe an amount not worthy of any medicinal (or otherwise) advantage to use it in the first place.

Here is a good link which describes ACV (and all other Vinegar for that matter) which backs up what my DVM has been telling me for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar#Apple_cider

It explains : "Vinegar is an acidic liquid processed from the fermentation of ethanol in a process that yields its key ingredient, acetic acid (also called ethanoic acid). "

Why anyone would give this to their birds is beyond me! And even put it in their water?

What do birds do with their water?

Wash themselves with it! So your giving ACID for your bird to wash/bath in?

Ohhh sheeeeesh!

Another old wives tale, not harmful to humans because of their size but when taken into consideration the size and weight of their bird is harmful! My advice to you, since you have a crop problem is have your DVM check out your bird. Give only bottled spring water (Walmart has it for less than a buck a gallon) and save the doctoring for the DVM.

To each his own... Wikipedia also notes:

[edit] Infections
Vinegar has been used to fight infections since Hippocrates, who lived between 460-377 BC, prescribed it for curing persistent coughs. Some studies have suggested vinegar may fight fungal infection,[citations needed] and it may also have antibacterial properties.[18]

The prescribed amount of ACV to a gallon of water is very weak. If you pour straight ACV down your bird's throat, yes you will have serious problems. I think following an avian vet's advice in this regard is best. I put all new birds coming into my home on the 1 T to 1 Gal water for at least 2 weeks. And it certainly cleared up a conure I had with diarhea within 3 days. The bird didn't need to be dosed with an antibiotic.

Yes, some old-time cures are suspect now.... Canary and pigeon breeders used to put a drop of clorox in their water to cure some problems. Also years ago they used to sell iodine drops to put in your budgie's water. Iodine is poisonous and a controlled substance if you want to buy a big bottle now. DON'T try these.

ACV diluted works for my birds. For people, supposedly 1 T a day of ACV is good for acid reflux. Ever try to swallow full strength ACV??? bleahhhhh!!!! Get a prescription.

I thank you for noting the Wikepedia article, though. Reasearch is good...

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Disclaimer: My comments on this site are of my own opinion. My intent is a friendly chat, to promote the welfare and proper care of parrots, offer helpful bird advice, to alert this site to issues that may result in financial loss, or issues (pro or con) that may arise concerning obtaining, purchasing, or adopting pet birds/parrots. My intent is not to criticize or hurt anyone else's feelings. If anyone thinks my comments pertain to themselves specifically, I apologize publicly, here in advance. If you object to my comments/posts/jokes, pls. private message me so as not to offend sensitive members on this site. Thank you.

TheFrantom wrote:To each his own... Wikipedia also notes:

[edit] Infections
Vinegar has been used to fight infections since Hippocrates, who lived between 460-377 BC, prescribed it for curing persistent coughs. Some studies have suggested vinegar may fight fungal infection,[citations needed] and it may also have antibacterial properties.[18]

The prescribed amount of ACV to a gallon of water is very weak. If you pour straight ACV down your bird's throat, yes you will have serious problems. I think following an avian vet's advice in this regard is best. I put all new birds coming into my home on the 1 T to 1 Gal water for at least 2 weeks. And it certainly cleared up a conure I had with diarhea within 3 days. The bird didn't need to be dosed with an antibiotic.

Yes, some old-time cures are suspect now.... Canary and pigeon breeders used to put a drop of clorox in their water to cure some problems. Also years ago they used to sell iodine drops to put in your budgie's water. Iodine is poisonous and a controlled substance if you want to buy a big bottle now. DON'T try these.

ACV diluted works for my birds. For people, supposedly 1 T a day of ACV is good for acid reflux. Ever try to swallow full strength ACV??? bleahhhhh!!!! Get a prescription.

I thank you for noting the Wikepedia article, though. Reasearch is good...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Disclaimer: My comments on this site are of my own opinion. My intent is a friendly chat, to promote the welfare and proper care of parrots, offer helpful bird advice, to alert this site to issues that may result in financial loss, or issues (pro or con) that may arise concerning obtaining, purchasing, or adopting pet birds/parrots. My intent is not to criticize or hurt anyone else's feelings. If anyone thinks my comments pertain to themselves specifically, I apologize publicly, here in advance. If you object to my comments/posts/jokes, pls. private message me so as not to offend sensitive members on this site. Thank you.

What you fail to notice is these points:

1) you can not arbitrarily prescribe a dose across the board for every bird, BASED ON WEIGHT AND INTAKE!

2) in amounts that show any sort of "old wives tales" remedy (DOSAGE) it would KILL the bird!

3) that leaves you with such a small amount it would not prove to do anything but slowly deteriorate the bones in the bird "overtime" and then you wind up KILLING THE BIRD.

In any of the cases I outlined above there is just no justification in giving ACV to a bird period. Yes you might take it yourself but there is NO EVIDENCE THAT THIS WILL HELP YOU IN ANY WAY!

Look, there is no place in the world where birds consume anything that is DISTILLED! Distillation is a human process that we do for ourselves, namely taking alcohol and other processes. Distilled water, distilled spirits, or anything else that is distilled is not for BIRDS!

Let's not confuse the things that we do for humans with the care and nutriment we give to our feathered companions. Leave the Doctoring to the DVM's. I would like to see where a DVM has prescribed ACV to birds! This information I will bring to my DVM who is animately against giving ACV and show her this Rx.

Dutch

"Holistic Care For Birds" by David McCluggage, DVM & Pamela Leis Higdon
http://www.amazon.com/Holistic-Care-Bir ... 8-1#reader
Apple Cider Vinegar

Organic apple cider vinegar is a wonderful product for the health of the intestinal system. It has a number of beneficial vitamins and minerals. Perhaps it is most useful as an acidifier of the intestinal tract and the entire body. It can be placed into the water bowl daily when needed. Indications for its use include chronic disbiosis, candida infections, chronic gram negative bacterial infections, chronic diarrhea due to an abnormal bacteria in the intestinal system, foul-smelling stools and proventricular dilatation disease.

Dose: 1 to 2 tablespoons in 8 ounces of water. You can flavor it with a little honey. Use it as the only source of water for one to two weeks at a time.

Reference: "Holistic Care for Birds" by David McCluggage, DVM & Pamela Leis Higdon


Apple Cider Vinegar By Alicia McWatters, Ph.D., C.N.C.
http://naturalbird.com/mcwatters/acv_for_birds.htm

http://landofvos.com/articles/kitchen2.html
Gout is a form of arthritis and occurs when crystals of uric acid form in the fluid surrounding a joint. The sharp, painful crystals form when blood levels of uric acid become too high and crystallize in the joints, just as sugar crystals pile up at the bottom of a glass of iced tea when you add too much sugar. Gout in birds is associated with the kidney's inability to remove nitrogen waste products from the bloodstream. As a result, uric acid accumulates and begins to abnormally collect in different sites within the body. There are two distinct form of this disease in parrots. Articular gout usually affects the joints of the lower legs. It's most common in budgies where it appears as multiple cream-colored shiny swellings bulging up through the skin. It is very painful and the bird becomes progressively crippled. Visceral gout affects the internal organs and is very difficult to diagnose.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH
pH is a measure of the acidity or basicity of a solution.
Pure water is said to be neutral. --- Solutions with a pH less than 7 are said to be acidic and solutions with a pH greater than 7 are said to be basic or alkaline.
When an acid is dissolved in water the pH will be less than 7 and when a base, or alkali is dissolved in water the pH will be greater than 7.

http://acstiels.com/Articles/Health/poop-ology.htm
Urine consists of a crystal urine called urates (white chalky material) and a non-crystal urine called urine (clear water).

http://avianweb.com/poopology.html
1. Urine consisting of a crystal urine called urates The clear part and is like water. Sometimes the Urine and Urates will combine and form a cloudy liquid, don't be alarmed if you can't always tell the two areas apart.

http://finchniche.com/f-poopology.mgi
Urates are the crystalline section of the urine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
Uric acid (or urate) is an organic compound of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen with the formula C5H4N4O3.
In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine.
In birds and reptiles, and in some desert dwelling mammals (eg kangaroo rat), uric acid also is the end product of purine metabolism, but it is excreted in feces as a dry mass. This involves a complex metabolic pathway that is energetically costly in comparison to processing of other nitrogenous wastes such as urea or ammonia, but has the advantage of reducing water loss.


http://earthclinic.com/Remedies/acvinegar.html
It's suggested that Apple Cider Vinegar has such curative abilities because it causes one's pH levels to become more alkaline.
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For the past year and a half I have routinely added apple cider vinegar, to my baby birds' hand-feeding formula, to all drinking water and sprinkled some on the food of the animals here at our aviary and small dairy farm. These animals include several species of breeding exotic parrots, chickens, ducks, dogs, cats and LaMancha dairy goats. The vinegar keeps the water bowls and bottles very clean and sanitary and the animals seem to love it--- of course, the nutritional and health benefits are a plus. Apple cider vinegar added to young birds drinking water encourages early weaning and healthy weight gain and they will feather out faster. Adding a little raw apple cider vinegar to the hand-feeding formula water can prove nutritionally beneficial and help to inhibit the growth of yeast, fungus and bacteria.

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/appleci ... rvineg.htm
Alkaline Acid Balance
Some alternative practitioners suggest apple cider vinegar as part of a diet to restore alkaline acid balance. The theory behind the alkaline diet is our blood is slightly alkaline, with a normal pH level of between 7.35 and 7.45. Our diet should reflect this pH level and be slightly alkaline. All foods we eat, after being digested and metabolized, release either an acid or alkaline base (bicarbonate) into blood. The foods that people tend to overeat –- grains, meat, dairy products -- all produce acid.

http://naturalmedicine.suite101.com/art ... balance_ph
Lemons are one of the gentlest ways to restore pH balance and alkalinity. Although lemon juice is itself acidic, the ash of lemon juice is alkaline. When you consume lemon, it neutralizes acid and makes the body more alkaline.
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Apple cider vinegar is an exception: unlike almost every other vinegar, it has an alkaline ash and improves pH by making the body less acidic.
For that reason alone, it is recommended to replace any vinegar in salad dressings and other recipes with apple cider vinegar, if lemon juice (as above) doesn’t provide enough bite.
Apple cider vinegar is more potent than lemon juice, but still a gradual way to reestablish healthy pH in the body

Nice rebuttal Monica however all the citations which you have posted (very good by the way!) are Holistic healers! None by any mainstream Traditional Western Medical Veterinarian.

As in all Holistic Healers they carry the following warning:

Finally, we only include natural remedies because we assume that your primary care veterinarian or veterinary specialist will prescribe the needed pharmaceuticals and diagnostic testing.

We strongly believe in a cooperative relationship between you, your local traditional Western veterinarian, and a holistic veterinarian

As in the case of the only nationally accredited citation you offered with David McCluggage, DVM and the citation above was by his own web site!

Sure there a lot of Kooks out there as in your Spicegood citation and has been throughly and exhaustively dismissed in many of her observations and recommendations as having no scientific merit what so ever. And her photo in her "flight suit" still reigns in my minds eye at every mention of her name.

The rest of your reply was either formed or postulated in terms of either a discussion of acids and bases (remember I already have a degree- BA- Cal-Berkeley) so all I can assume is that you are appalling a discussion in depth of the nature of PH which I will concur. However the last note on the bottom seems to be either lacking substance, goes in the grain of what your other postings seems to imply or again lacks any scientific merit what so ever. Described in that way it appears ACV is our silver bullet and will cure all that ails us! ....rofl.

Bring the science, not the humanities, to a scientific discussion and you will improve your standing not only in the academic environment but also those who read your writing. I'm hoping for big things from you Monica, keep up the good work! If you have something in this field (ACV) I'd like you to present it logically and in a scientific format so we can light up the world.

For the time being, ACV and the other Homeopathic remedies are just that!

Boogie Woogie.......

Dismissed by any mainstream scientist unless they wish to bring discredit to themselves or their study. I would suggest to you Monica, as I believe you are studying mainstream, that you decide which side of the fence you want to sit on and not jump from side to side when ever the feeling strikes you! I have read your work and I await greatness! don't be sloppy.

Dutch

I'm afraid then to disappoint you, because I am not in the belief that there is one single right answer, or way of doing something. ACV is indeed acidic, but so are oranges and lemons. I'm sure there are plenty of parrots out there who love oranges, and quite a few owners who spritz fresh foods with a little lemon juice to keep it fresher just a little longer. Are you then saying that citric fruits are bad for birds?

Lemon juice has a pH of 2.4. Vinegar has a pH of 2.9. Orange juice is about 3.5 pH. I can't find anything that says the pH level of ACV but most are saying within the range of 5-7. Pure water has a pH of 7.

There's a lot of old folk remedies, but I can't believe that they are all bad for your health. Sure, maybe they are not a "cure all" as many of them may try to make you believe, but some of the stuff, in moderation, can't be all that bad for your body. Granted, I'll admit, some of them probably aren't good for you, either.


BTW, thought I'd also give this link... Everything is copyright by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.
http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/avianmeds.html
vinegar, can be used in drinking water (apple cider) to treat gastrointestinal yeast infections, also can be applied topically to mucosa of cloaca (everted) to check for evidence of papillomas

I don't know who TheFrantom's vet is, but their vet also recommended ACV.

Looking back on some other posts, RJ's vet uses it and recommends it.
grey/topic38535.html#p59066

Another vet who recommends more citrus fruits as well as a little ACV...
macaw-connection/topic33838.html

Min's vet also recommended it, just not for extended periods of time
grey/topic28037.html#p42228


Sure, ACV may do nothing, or perhaps there could be some unknown side effect. It shouldn't be considered a cure but perhaps more of a supplement, something that may be good, but should not be given frequently. Although Tina may not give her parrots ACV, she does use it for anti-bacterial properties. She does however recommend other supplements for parrots... I'm sure you are familiar with the list, no? http://www.freewebs.com/macaw672/feedingyourparrot.htm

If a bird is sick, a persons best bet is to take that bird to an avian vet - as treating at home could make things worse, not better. However, not everyone has access to avian vets (and I'm not talking about people who live in just North America, either). If possible, these people need to get a phone consultation with an avian vet, or if one is available, have their vet work with avian vets.

I just don't think that everything should be dismissed if it's not "traditional Western medicine" as everything has it's pro's and con's. That's easily seen with all the warnings on the labels of medicine.

Let's not confuse the things that we do for humans with the care and nutriment we give to our feathered companions.

Medicine for dogs and cats has been largely based off of medicines for humans. Those same medicines are also being used on our avian companions. My own avian vet (a DVM) put one of my birds on liquid Baytril for dogs, and prescribed Aspirin for human infants for another bird.

Monica,

You have supplied the quote of all quotes:

By Dr. Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.

in which she lists 'FOR OTHER VET'S" not pet owners, her course of treatment and their med's

http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/avianmeds.html

However her extensive articles about water, water quality, and the use of acids in their water supply should be of special note! Furthermore her use of ACV is exhaustive but not without the more preferred Rx (prescriptions) that have showed better in the treatment of gastrointestinal yeast infections, IE; Nystatin, Diflucan and other anti-fungal treatments.

Also any treatment of these in the anti fungal family say quite eloquently, not to be prescribed for longer periods than six months because they can be harmful if taken for a very long time. What is at topic here is the use of ACV in a normal drinking water supply (USE OF SUCH OVER MORE THAN 6 MONTHS TIME FRAME) is what I am against. Also the use of such without a DVM's strict oversight!

So are we using a Homeotropic medicine, when a much better one administered by a DVM under prescription that is better at solving the problem and under their constant care and supervision is over shadowed by ACV?

We shouldn't even be having this conversation!

ACV stinks, is not proven to do anything, and can cause problems even death if given over extended periods of time!

This is more than what you are casually dismissing as a home remedy when you fail to give the proper disclaimers or show any bias to pet owners that can't afford proper medical care. There is no middle road, you must tell people to see their Vet! You can not diagnose problems over the internet and then offer homeotropic medicines in any manor and have a straight face! That is pure quackery!

As for Dr Margaret's second use for ACV she makes it clear "also can be applied topically to mucosa of cloaca (everted) to check for evidence of papillomas" Do you have any idea what she is saying?

She is telling Dr's that during an evertia, everting the cloaca to apply a tiny amount of ACV (probably by use of a swab or other item) on the mucosa to check for problems as evidence of papillomas!!!!!!!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca

What she means is that the Doctor opens up the vent (cloaca) and extends it to apply the swab and see it FOAMS, I'm sure you are not recommending that pet owners do this practice? Then even if it does, it is not specific to the result intended as further testing might have a better indication as to the evidence of papillomas!

What you're doing is shooting a shot gun at the side of the barn, sure you might hit it but the result will always be challenged in a scientific community. ACV is not a cure all, it is not the silver bullet, and with other more reliable Rx's out there the use is totally dismissed!

The fact that ACV is acid will never be lost when counting up the amounts of acid being digested daily into our birds diet. Yes I too use a squeezed lemon on top of my fresh food given to my birds in a few drops mixed completely and it does allow the fresh food to stay that way longer. Yes I do give oranges and apples and other fruit with natural acid. But to compare this to ACV is to say that the fruit stays in the dishes for several months to a year in order for the Mother of Vinegar to develop and manifest itself to the amounts that occur in *(distilled) ACV.

This is like comparing apples to car oil filters!

And lastly I know RJ personally and what ever she says against what I write should be left for her to read this posting in it's entirety, and let her make that call. The last time she and her husband came over to visit my aviary we had a long talk about you. I know we (RJ and myself) don't agree with everything but for you to half azz quote her is an abomination!

But keep up the work Monica, lets see some science, again all I see is humanities! You don't have to worry about disappointing me.

Dutch

PurpleHeart wrote:I would like to see where a DVM has prescribed ACV to birds!

I suppose that has nothing to do with the entire conversation...

PurpleHeart wrote:in which she lists 'FOR OTHER VET'S" not pet owners, her course of treatment and their med's

Ya, so it's for *OTHER* vets, but still a "recommendation," if you wanna call it that, to use ACV with birds.

PurpleHeart wrote:So are we using a Homeotropic medicine, when a much better one administered by a DVM under prescription that is better at solving the problem and under their constant care and supervision is over shadowed by ACV?

I never recommended ACV over meds that are far more effective. In fact, I haven't even replied to Sherri's post on her harlequin macaw. Besides the treatment of worms, the OP was looking for for advice on keeping the water bowls cleaner. As I had mentioned, there is a debate as to how often ACV should be used.

Sherri01 wrote:Gee I didn't realize that apple cider vinegar could help my parrot if she had a yeast infection. I actually use apple cider vinegar to clean their cages with.

*IF* seems to be a key word. With that said, I'm not disputing the fact that all new birds *SHOULD* be taken to an avian vet for a new bird exam to ensure the bird is indeed healthy. Truth be told though, the harly's beak and nails looked fine to me... although the nails do look rather sharp, neither one appear overgrown.

PurpleHeart wrote:This is more than what you are casually dismissing as a home remedy when you fail to give the proper disclaimers or show any bias to pet owners that can't afford proper medical care. There is no middle road, you must tell people to see their Vet! You can not diagnose problems over the internet and then offer homeotropic medicines in any manor and have a straight face! That is pure quackery!

In this thread I have not in any way suggested a "home remedy" over proven medications. There seems to be more information *FOR* than *AGAINST* ACV. Whether or not it really is as good as it says, if ACV can help a body become more alkaline when it's too acidic, or more acidic if it's too alkaline, then it is at least a *LITTLE* beneficial.

Regardless of that, I know of many parrot owners who have soup makers, and in 12 hours time or less, when the person is working their bird is making soup. When the person gets home, the water and bowl is slimy due to all the crud the bird put in it. For that reason, many owners like to use a little ACV or GSE (although ACV is probably better) to keep the water cleaner.

PurpleHeart wrote:As for Dr Margaret's second use for ACV she makes it clear "also can be applied topically to mucosa of cloaca (everted) to check for evidence of papillomas" Do you have any idea what she is saying?

She is telling Dr's that during an evertia, everting the cloaca to apply a tiny amount of ACV (probably by use of a swab or other item) on the mucosa to check for problems as evidence of papillomas!!!!!!!"

I may not be a vet, or have studied extensively on the anatomy of a parrot, but I'm not *THAT* stupid. I know what cloacas are as well as papillomas. And with the sentence I can easily get a general idea of what she is talking about.

PurpleHeart wrote:But to compare this to ACV is to say that the fruit stays in the dishes for several months to a year in order for the Mother of Vinegar to develop and manifest itself to the amounts that occur in *(distilled) ACV.

I doubt it makes a difference, but supposedly ACV with "mother of vinegar" in it (dead yeast and bacterial cells) is healthier than the distilled/filtured ACV. As many say, the distilled ACV has no health benefits that the RAW/ORGANIC ACV has...

PurpleHeart wrote:And lastly I know RJ personally and what ever she says against what I write should be left for her to read this posting in it's entirety, and let her make that call. The last time she and her husband came over to visit my aviary we had a long talk about you. I know we (RJ and myself) don't agree with everything but for you to half azz quote her is an abomination!

Then can you please ask her if her avian vet is a DVM??? All I'm doing is referring to the first quote in this message! Geeze, all I do is give you proof of something and I still get blasted for it! Oh yes, that makes perfect sense! Thank you for the debate!