upatsix.com - Your Source For Pet Bird Information

Well that is the point:

We don't know exactly what is on her bird.

A flea for someone could be a thousand different types of parasites, that may inhabit a bird. Fleas excluded on account of the exemption. She didn't say where she is from nor what season is involved in her area of the world.

I know how to read, I have a BA from UC Berkeley. And I have done extensive traveling in your hemisphere, hence my comments relating to your local customs. And I personally could care less what you believe you are or how many years that you've been doing "what ever." Unless you have a DVM after your name, you are nothing but digits on the internet. And if you did have a DVM after your name, you for sure wouldn't be giving out any advice of the sort unless you had examined the specimen personally and done the required testing.

Now:

Look this isn't a Yahoo Group, and seeing that you've just joined us, I'll take it you think I am flaming you. I see you misunderstand me completely. But for the most part, Up at Six is a repository of many views and expertise's, but none carry the same weight as a Licensed Practicing Doctor of Vetenerary Medicine. I will not stoop to a clawing match with the likes of you.

You can prescribe the course of treatment for chicken and ducks without much repercussion, however this a Macaw. I see very little Macaw advice given. Interjecting your so called backwoods commonsense witch doctoring is no match for a DVM's professional advice. My words of warning are intended for those who in their good nature try to doctor their birds and wind up doing more harm than good, not only to the bird but their human family as well. And this is exactly the point of Up At Six!

So go ahead and conjure up your potions and offer "old wives tales" as your opinion. Hopefully wise and careful thought will prevail and she will take her bird in for an examination. Besides what organization was it that granted you the title of "aviculturist?"

I would like to know if it is their course of study, to reject competent medical advice of a licensed doctor for that of a ..... what is that you called yourself?

Sorry, Patti. Honest differences of opinion aren't permitted with PurpleHeart. His style is flame and slash. His disrespect for others sadly undermines his great knowledge of birds and his obvious love of them. Try to ignore the ridiculous outbursts. His unmanageable anger ebbs and flows regularly enough and in so many directions (especially toward anyone who challenges him) that you'll soon see there's no reason to feel personally assaulted.

Thanks BB! Yep...at first I did take it very personally. But then realised that PH's posts were so over the top and venomous that there must be some sort of problem there, and sent him a priave message asking that we just agree to disagee. I hope it works. You and I have had a difference of opinion ourselves, but as mature adults we kept the personal insults out of it and because of that I have even more respect for you and your knowlege. I really appreciate your words of support.

What a bunch of old hens clucking away

Since my mention of the use of Ivermectin seemed to be what started this "debate" I thought I would pass on a link with further info for anyone interested
http://www.birdhealth.com.au/bird/parrot/disease.html
As you can see it is written by a vet not a witch doctor

To de-mistify another statement
A gram stain is a method of differentiating bacterial species into two large groups (Gram-positive and Gram-negative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_stain

The definition of an aviculturalist is simply a term used to denote someone who keeps birds....usually more applicable to
those who breed birds rather than keep a few as companions. But, generaly it covers all of us.
(that seemed to cause a bit of confusion for one member....it's not some sort of titled bestowed by a group or authority)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Aviculturalist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviculture

and here's one just for you PURPLEHEART
www.angermanagement.com

Ivermectin is a prescription drug and can only be obtained from a veterinarian or by prescription from a veterinarian.

A gram stain can be conducted in one's own home, as I do, and have tried to explain how to do it on numerous occasions online in this board to no avail. The absence of such test is deadly for birds who are infected by parasites and can easily be diagnosed and controlled by accomplishing this.

Dutch

Here in Australia Ivermectin is an OTC medication that can be obtained from any fodder shop (feed store). It's one of those amazing drugs that can be administered topically orally or even by injection. Its used for humans as well as birds and livestock. And is very effective.

Regarding gram stains.....I'm not sure most people would have heat-fixed bacteria slides, Gram's lodine, crystal violet, safranin, decolorizer, and a reasonably powerful microscope just sitting round the house. Not to mention the expertise to interpret what they were looking at IF they were able to peform the procedure accurately. Distinguishing bacterial species into groups based on the chemical and physical properties of their cell walls can be very tricky business for a lay person. And even if you get that part of it done correctly you would then have to know informations such as....a normal Psittacine stool consist of 95% gram positive rods and cocci and up to 5% gram negative rods and that occasional yeast is normal.....and if you've gotten that far....then you still need to know that it is NOT possible to determine the species of bacteria from Gram stain results alone! Difinitive identification requires culture and biochemical testing.
Choice of antibiotic therapy is guided by the Gram stain results. So if you've managed to get this far, you're still going to need your vet to prescribe the correct antibiotic based on the gram stain and other test results. It is our custom here in my hemisphere to leave microbiology to the microbiologist......

You've met your match Dutch... Recommending a Gram Stain be performed as part of the procedure to identify and treat mites is just plain nonsense. And then to go on and recommend that people do their own at home. What a joke!!! Having reviewed several of your posts it is clear to me that you prefer to....as the old saying goes...."baffle people with BS rather than dazzle them with brillance". Each and every time you get stuck in and start spouting a bunch of nonsense and try to make it sound as if it is factual and that you are God's gift to aviculture I will be right behind you posting accurate and helpful information in a supportive rather than agressive manner. You clearly have nil people skills and have obviously alienated a lot of people who have come here for helpful thoughtful advice. And I am 100% certain that THAT is why UA6 was created. Not so that you can rant and rave and belittle people in order to make yourself feel better about your own failings...whatever they may be.....

You may have a Bachelors of ARTS from Berkely, but....I am an RN who has also trained as a vet nurse and was manager of the avian department and wildlife hospital at a wildlife park in Victoria for two years....as well as a wildlife rescuer and private aviculturalist....


So....to quote another old saying...."if ya cant run with the big dogs...then stay on the porch"......

Patti In Oz wrote:So....to quote another old saying...."if ya cant run with the big dogs...then stay on the porch"......

Now that you're done puffing yourself, what is it your trying to prove?

You're still a witch doctor if you can practice medicine over the internet.

Imagine that and you call yourself a medical professional to boot? I've reviewed all your postings, that is for the few days you have been online here and find you to be disgusting and rude, if not down right ridiculous. You do not upset me, you make me laugh my AZZ off.

You have wrote me privately saying to let this matter drop, and I have only commented on the nonsense you seem to post about your expertise and seemingly lack of any reasonable scientific standards. (Ex: Proper citations regarding your posting, comments about your conclusions or recommended practice in any of the standard formats, APA, MLA, Chicago and CBE, Columbia, etc..)

My postings have only been to recommend to the original poster that she have her Macaw examined by a Licensed Practicing Veterinarian hopefully one that specialized in an Avian Practice. To your response all you have posted was nonsense. I'll just let the reader see how immature you are and judge for themselves.

In closing this time;

Let me point out that there is a reason that only a Vet gives such a prescription to a bird in the United States of America. And I'll leave it at that, well at least until you insert your big foot into your mouth and tell us how sweet it smells.

Dutch

U-C Berkeley class of 94'
"Past" Member of the Genome Project- woof woof

I can't respond to most of what you just wrote, Dutch...simply because it makes absolutely no sense.......and comes across to me as disjointed and irrelevant not to mention badly written.

IMHO recommending that people conduct complex testing such as Gram Stains at home would well and truely be categorised as endorsing witch doctery..... And I am still mystified as to what one would hope to accomplish by doing a homemade test anyhow.
I would love for you to enlighten me as to why and how this would be beneficial. Especially in the treatment of parasitic rather than bacteriological conditions.

Yes, there is a reason why some drugs are available here OTC and by script only in the US and vice versa...it's called Bureaucracy....... But....I think you will find that Ivermectin is not a prescription drug in the US either. That is unless it is being given to humans to treat a few fairly rare afflictions....

Regarding your participation in the genome project. That is no more relevent in this particular conversation than your BA.

Yes...you probably do find a lot of my posts to be "ridiculous". Good! I would really prefer that someone of your ilk didn't agree with what I write. Because we are clearly at the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as our definitions of what would be helpful, supportive, and thoughtful. But......I take umbrage at the use of the terms disgusting and rude.

Whilst I am always up for a good debate as a lot of information and enlightenment can be derived from such debates. You always seem to resort to name calling and insults. Why is that?

Are you still clucking away?

Like I said I would let you put your own foot into your mouth and tell us all it smells good (do you see the irony in that?) Just like your former posts the later one did nothing. Like my example (foot in mouth- one would expect your comment to be taste) you still miss the mark by a long shot. So for the reply this time I will simply use:

Internal Parasite Diagnosis in Small Animals- Diagnosis of internal parasites in small animals is typically done by examination of feces.

Hierarchy of diagnosis in Avian Disorders- The order of Clinical Evaluation

Parasitic Diseases:

Bacterial- (ruled out with a simple gram-positive result)
Pasteurella spp
Mycoplasma spp
Avian tuberculosis
Mycobacteriosis- Mycobacterium avium , M intracellulare , and M genavense
Staphylococci
streptococci (especially hemolytic strains)
Bacillus spp
Enterobacteriaceae
Escherichia coli
Pseudomonas
Aeromonas
Serratia marcescens
Salmonella
Klebsiella
Clostridial organisms
Enterobacter
Proteus
Citrobacter spp
Chlamydiosis

The gram-negative bacteria are common avian pathogens, although many are regarded as opportunists.

Mycotic- requires additional tests
Candidiasis
Aspergillosis
Avian Gastric Yeast
Malassezia sp
Miscellaneous Mycoses

Viral- blood test
Avian Polyomavirus
Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease
Pacheco’s Disease
Poxvirus Infections
Viscerotropic Velogenic Newcastle Disease
Avian Influenza

Neoplastic- usually requires surgical excision for testing
Pseudoneoplastic Skin Conditions
Cutaneous and Subcutaneous Neoplasia

Nutritional- Blood testing, physical evaluation, and Radiographs

Reproductive- Blood and surgical examination

Toxicities- Blood and other fluid testing

Miscellaneous
Feather Destructive Behavior

"Merck Veterinary Manual - Ninth Edition Published: Merck & Co. January, 2008 ISBN: 0-911910-50-6"

Ok...my mistake...I should have stated my question a bit more clearly

I would love for you to enlighten me as to why and how this would be beneficial. Especially in the treatment of EXTERNAL parasitic rather than bacteriological conditions.

Patti In Oz wrote:enlighten me as to why and how this would be beneficial. Especially in the treatment of EXTERNAL parasitic rather than bacteriological conditions.

Simply stated- Birds EAT bugs.

You also overlooked the obvious in the original posting, she said she had several CATS.

This would have been my initial adverse reaction because I personally feel that cats and birds should NEVER-EVER come in contact with each other. Not only for the safety of the bird but also in the transfer of diseases that are harmful to the bird and?

There are zoonotic diseases, cat-to-bird-to human contact, with some very serious results. "Dr. Christopher W. Olsen, Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison, 2015 Linden Drive West, Madison, WI 53706. (608) 265-8681; <olsenc@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu>"

Yeah well, that's one point upon which we agree. Cats and birds don't mix. Not for the reasons you mentioned though. But because the natural healthy flora in a cat's saliva is very dangerous for birds. Even a playful nip that breaks the skin can cause serious problems for birds. I've seen wayyyy too many little birds and possums come into care with relatively minor puncture wounds from a cat end up dying. Their immune system just simply can't effectively combat Pasteurella Multocida even with the aid of powerful VET PERSCRIBED antibiotics. In fact with our native possums, even a couple of small wounds equals a death sentence......

Other than that I am unmoved by your arguments. I believe that you are over complicating what should be a very simple straight forward issue. To me it would be the same as having your kid come home from school with a runny nose and instead of making sure they are getting plenty of fluids and keeping them a bit quiet, rushing them off for blood work x-rays etc.....

Instead of just simply stating your opinion in a constructive manner you have consistantly resorted to personal attacks and name calling. It would be much more beneficial for all concerned if you were to just express your opinion and allow others to do the same. And then allow the person who initially asked the question to review all the opinions that have been given and do what they feel is the most appropriate in their specific situation. That seems to be what other participants do.

You targeted me specifically and I am not the sort to tolerate bullies without standing up for myself. It's not necessary, unproductive, and only serves to make any information (accuarate or not) that you put out there questionable because of your behaviour.

My understanding of the military is that there is a strong emphasis on team work..... Is that correct????

Here at UA6 those of us who have been involved in aviculture for a long time and have gleaned a lot of first hand experience should work as a team to help those who are new or facing an unfamiliar situation.

I must admit that I have played a part in this ongoing argument. And I shouldn't have done so. As stated above I absolutely hate bullies, and won't back down readily. But the more you insult me, the more of your credibility you lose.