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Your mistaken Petter.
I never said if nature allows it it is good.
I said if God doesn't want it to happen he made it impossible and no human mind could ever win that one.
He gave us free will and a free mind to experiment and learn from it both the bad AND the good.
And I am a Human...NOT an animal.
I am a Christian but I am not religious - I dont believe in Religion. (figure that one out, lol)
Nothing is spontaneous - everything happens for a reason, maybe not reasons we understand.

Nature isn't good. Nature isn't evil. Nature just is; 'good' and 'evil' are values we apply to things. Let us do so advisedly.

Thats exactly what I mean.
I only mentioned cloning because someone else brought it up.
This is fun

teacupparrots wrote:Your mistaken Petter.
I never said if nature allows it it is good.
I said if God doesn't want it to happen he made it impossible and no human mind could ever win that one.
He gave us free will and a free mind to experiment and learn from it both the bad AND the good.

So what is your position? Hybridisation is good? Hybridisation is bad, or evil? You have no idea? I'm fine with the latter -- I'm provisionally against hybridisation myself, but the reasoning is considerably more important than the conclusion; it's better to have a rational framework available to consider new data than to blindly adhere to a conclusion -- but I don't see what your statements add to the discussion. Can you please clarify?

And I am a Human...NOT an animal.

That's like saying that my mother's old pet, Athos, was a beagle and not a dog, and that I had budgies -- not birds -- when I was a child. We are humans; hominids; primates; placental mammals; amniotes; tetrapods; animals; eukaryotes. (This is, after all, why those medical advances you mentioned work -- if we weren't related to apes, monkeys, rats, and mice, animal models would be useless in medical research.)

Boy are you brainwashed. You sound like a robot. You need a vacation outdoors somewhere. Geesh. I simply think that anything man breeds is fine as long as he is ready to look after its well being and his invironment (our world) as this is our responsibility. If we need more Scarlets in the wild then someone should be making that happen and it might if we had less emphasis on incompetant people breeding and building condos to live in their habitat. I own a Hybrid and again - Mules helped to build this fine world we live in.
No matter how similar we are - and how well we can study animals to better our lives and health. Man is not animal.

teacupparrots wrote:Boy are you brainwashed.

By whom, exactly? To what position? Do you have anything to back up that accusation, or are you merely engaging in mud-slinging?

I simply think that anything man breeds is fine as long as he is ready to look after its well being and his invironment (our world) as this is our responsibility.

I largely agree with you on this, but I think that what animals we breed, and how we breed these animals, should also take their well-being into consideration. My point is that some things that man breeds just aren't well-suited to enjoy any kind of well-being.

Again, consider the Persian cats whose sinuses are squashed and whose eyes are constantly tearing because their tear ducts are malformed, because they have been selectively bred for extremely shortened skulls. This is unethical breeding -- breeding for an ideal of human aesthetics, with no regard for the suffering or well-being of the resultant animals. The same applies to various breeds of dogs, which suffer congenital defects.

Does this apply to parrots? Well, I think so, but I don't have much data to base it on, so my opinion is very far from set in stone. There have been some well-documented reports of confused behaviour as a result of hybridising lovebirds, cited elsewhere in these forums. Basic genetics, moreover, tells us that with a barrier as wide as that between species, there is plenty of opportunity for things to go wrong -- simply put, there's tremendous selective pressure within an interbreeding population against genetic incompatibilities, but none whatsoever across species boundaries.

I own a Hybrid

...Which doesn't mean that hybrids are good, or that they are bad.

and again - Mules helped to build this fine world we live in.

So what? Slaves helped to build this fine world we live in. I'm sure there are many wonderful edifices that wouldn't be standing today if not for the institution of slavery. That does not mean that the institution of slavery was anything short of monstrous -- because whether or not their work was good, slaves suffered, and slave-owners had no right to inflict that suffering upon them. I hope you will agree with this?

(Do I think that mules are a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know -- that depends on whether mules are prone to congenital defects or genetic disorders that cause suffering. If so, then yes; if not, then no. In the case of mules, we don't have the issue of what happens with future generations to muddy the waters.)

No matter how similar we are - and how well we can study animals to better our lives and health. Man is not animal.

To what phylum do you then believe that Homo sapiens belongs? I am sure that many biologists would like to know, if they are mistaken -- as would robotic laymen such as yours truly.

yeah, mud slinging
Im done arguing with you anyway, life is too short to waste on this nonsense.
Oh and just for the record I think persian cats and english bull dogs of today are a stupid mistake but no matter how bad they suffer there unfortunatly going to be too many libral minded boneheads to breed them.
I'm going back to project Chaos now, its more fun

Mules... There are plenty of them. There are also plenty of horses and donkeys. 99% of mules are sterile. Thus, they can't reproduce. Why? Horses have 64 chromosomes, and donkeys have 62. 64+62=126 126/2=63 Sterile. Zebras have 44-62 chromosomes (dependent on species). If the right Zebra species bred with a horse or donkey (would vary considering), then we'd end up with fertile zorses / zeedonks / zebula / hebra / zebroid / zonkey/zebrass / zebronky / zebadonk / zenkey / zebrinny / deebra (plent of information on this on the wikipedia). Short and simple, most of these hybrids are sterile, meaning they can't muddy future generations, and possibly pass on bad genes. (I haven't heard of any health issues with hybrid mules, and they are quite popular, so besides sterility, I don't know of any)

TCP, I'm not sure how you can't be religious when you believe more in religion than science. I was born Christian, but I can't believe in something that I cannot see or feel or smell or taste or hear, therefore I side with Science. Likewise, I can't believe in a religion that puts man on a pedestal above all else... as if we rule this earth and that everything put on this earth was for our entertainment, our enjoyment, our food, etc. As far as I'm concerned, we as humans are destroying this earth with all our fancy gadgets, our buildings, our homes, our wasteful greed, etc. (I'll admit, I'm human too! I live in a home with heat, blankets, almost a small library of books, all my computer stuff, etc) I shall respect your beliefs, but when you mix religion (based on Fate and Beliefs) with science (facts and possibilities), well there will always be a conflict, which is apparent in the "joke" below (which is one of my favorites!)

Science Vs Religion

I enjoy having Petter around with all his in-depth perception. However, when you bring in religion on a hybrid debate, your turning that debate into a "science vs religion" debate, that goes somewhat off topic. Regardless, I hope you enjoyed the link to the debate of "science vs religion" between a professor and his classroom.

Since we are off topic...
Religion is people trying to seek Christ thru works.
Christianity is Christ seeking seeking people.
I'm a Christian.
I am not religious.
I don't believe in religion.

I am a small breeder. mostly amazons, but I have 1 pair of green wings I do not cross breed any of my birds and it has took me years to put the pairs I have today together. getting harder to find, I have been reading you guys posts and am reluctant to say any thing ,,but here goes,,, we as humans are a strange bunch we cant agree on hardly anything let alone how or why we do the things we do,, for example,, give us an earth and we will destroy it...give us air and we will pollute it,,,give us clean water and we will pollute it to the point that fish cant even live in it,,,,give us food and millions will starve to death right here in the good old USA..... Get my point we suck at taking care of ourselves so why on Gods green earth would we even pretend to know what the almighty dollar will produce next,,,,,,,,,,supply and demand ,,,,,,,, ant that what all this boils down to ?? Stop and look around you,,,,I'm blessed how bout you

well said.
thanks.
can we end it on this note?

The bird Bowie is indeed a very beautiful bird,however it's strong similarity to a Scarlet illustrates the problem with hybrids perfectly.Imagine a fourth or fifth generation getting confused with a pure Scarlet and being bred as such. The gene pool of that particular line is forever compromised.These birds that we as humans posses are most likely the only birds left to us as declining wild populations prohibit the capture of wild birds for recreational aviculture. My personal feeling is as breeders of these majestic birds it is our responsibilty to to safeguard these gene pools for future generations.N.J.Collar in the introduction to the book "The Large Macaws" says it very beautifuly that to secure the survival of these birds we must not think of just the present and the profit to be made off these birds but to have the vision of the next 500 years to save them from extinction.I highly recommend reading his intro if not the whole book for anyone who has an interest in Macaws.

The bird Bowie is indeed a very beautiful bird,however it's strong similarity to a Scarlet illustrates the problem with hybrids perfectly.Imagine a fourth or fifth generation getting confused with a pure Scarlet and being bred as such. The gene pool of that particular line is forever compromised.These birds that we as humans posses are most likely the only birds left to us as declining wild populations prohibit the capture of wild birds for recreational aviculture. My personal feeling is as breeders of these majestic birds it is our responsibilty to to safeguard these gene pools for future generations.N.J.Collar in the introduction to the book "The Large Macaws" says it very beautifuly that to secure the survival of these birds we must not think of just the present and the profit to be made off these birds but to have the vision of the next 500 years to save them from extinction.I highly recommend reading his intro if not the whole book for anyone who has an interest in Macaws.

[quote="Irish"][quote="darlene"]Personally I don't find any of those pictured as pretty as what God gave us. Just my opinion.[/quote]

Obviously, you've never met my 3rd generation hybrid yellow dominant Capri macaw, Bowie.

[img]http://www.colliecapers.com/birdboard/golden4pp1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.colliecapers.com/birdboard/golden4pp2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.colliecapers.com/birdboard/golden4pp3.jpg[/img]

Ya can't argue that a macaw that looks like a tropical sunset or a Sun conure isn't as pretty as what God gave us, considering He gave us the sunsets and the screeching little conures, too .

I think you'll find that hybrids are a hot-button issue. Like religion, pit bulldogs and abortion, people are going to have strong opinions about them, and you're not likely to change their minds easily. For me, if it lives, it deserves to be treated with love and respect, whether it's purebred or hybrid, old, fat, ugly, beautiful, bald or crippled. Do unto others and all that, ya know.[/quote]


Your Bowie is stunning and beautiful, congratulations..

Thank you, Cherane .

Jaime, no one with any kind of eyesight could ever mistake Bowie for a purebred Scarlet. His yellow tailfeathers and yellow and orange coloring are distinctive to his particular hybrid color-type (yellow dominant Capri). I have, however seen red dominant Capris who are nearly indistinguishable from purebred Scarlets. Thankfully, of the two whom I know, one is banded "Hyb", and the other belongs to a woman who has no plans to ever breed her--and would assuredly let any new owner know that this bird is a hybrid should she ever find herself in a position requiring rehoming the bird. Scrupulous people won't misrepresent their birds' hybrid status. Unscrupulous people might, but, if you can't tell the difference by looking, AND the bird is never going to be part of a captive-bred for release into the wild project, I don't see what the problem is, anyway. Certainly, most (I know, not ALL) domestically bred purebred macaws are well-represented in the pet trade, and not likely to become "extinct" in captivity. Of the ones who could, I don't know of anyone who advocates or defends hybridizing those species.

jaime wrote:N.J.Collar in the introduction to the book "The Large Macaws" says it very beautifuly that to secure the survival of these birds we must not think of just the present and the profit to be made off these birds but to have the vision of the next 500 years to save them from extinction.I highly recommend reading his intro if not the whole book for anyone who has an interest in Macaws.

500 years is but a speed bump in the history of the Mighty Macaw who has been around for 80 million years. Hybrid Macaws are survivors and found on many islands in both the Pacific and Atlantic. They were first delivered there by pirates who fancied their ability to find land and free flew above the vessel until land was sighted, the macaws would take off, and the boat followed that direction. Like an early GPS system. They were also used for food, as one account of a captain in the 1300's told us that Macaws did not taste good. I personally buy mating pairs of pure species Macaws that are set up for hybrid babies and find new homes (pure species) Instead of argue if it is right or wrong. I just do something about it.

About the species of Hybrid Macaws on these islands, if they had pure species to mate with they would 100%! But because they don't THEY SURVIVE ANYWAY THEY CAN. We can all learn something about this. We as responsible breeders should do everything we can to breed responsibly, and to me that is 100% pure species. If you don't know THEN DON'T BREED. We might need less breeders and more aviculturists here.

Dutch