upatsix.com - Your Source For Pet Bird Information

I'm going to cross-post on two "threads" (or whatever they're called) here. IMO this is the kind of info that belongs here....rather than the bird world's version of the Jerry Springer Show.

I & others....pure species bird people & hybridizers alike have found this site absolutely mesmerizing:

http://www.cityparrots.org

Please check out this site. Go to GALLERY, then CUMBRIA UK 2005, pg 2 to see pix of hybrid Macaws living free in the wild. These hybrids weren't released....they were born there from pure species parents who just happened to "hook up". You can see that there are plenty of pure species too. They seem to get along just fine! It's us.....the most "intelligent" species on the planet, that can't seem to make nice.

Also, please look at the home pg that talks about the natural hybridizing going on between Alexandrines & IRN's in the Netherland's (they're like the feral Quakers over here). Read something about Canaries & Siskins somewhere too.

The whole site is amazing.....IMO......& I would hope you find it of interest as well. If not, that's what the delete button is for.

Barb

PS:
many-feathers...you've ruined my "image" !! I'm supposed to be unethical & greedy & getting rich running some kind of a hybrid Macaw puppy mill here!!

caraparrots wrote:http://www.cityparrots.org

Please check out this site. Go to GALLERY, then CUMBRIA UK 2005, pg 2 to see pix of hybrid Macaws living free in the wild. These hybrids weren't released....they were born there from pure species parents who just happened to "hook up". You can see that there are plenty of pure species too. They seem to get along just fine! It's us.....the most "intelligent" species on the planet, that can't seem to make nice.

Also, please look at the home pg that talks about the natural hybridizing going on between Alexandrines & IRN's in the Netherland's (they're like the feral Quakers over here). Read something about Canaries & Siskins somewhere too.

Good points there.... but at the same time, one can contradict that and say that they are not living in their NATURAL habitat, where there are PLENTY of mates to choose from (so to speak), thus having limited amounts of mates to choose from they are hybridizing. OR, the possibility that some of these birds were once captive bred, thus they don't necessarily KNOW to pick the RIGHT mate... or for the fact that maybe the hybrids were captive born then became wild?

Same can be said for the ringnecks... as I don't believe they are native to the Netherlands.

Heck, we can even point out the Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill (i.e. San Fransisco). The flock started off as Cherry Headed Conures, which over time they bred, and captive cherry heads were let loose. There was at one point in time a blue crown conure (actually two) in the flock, however they never hybridized..... that was, until a female mitred joined the flock... The flock is thus now full of a bunch of inbreds, and hybrids... being first, second, third and so on generations... and do to this inbreeding and hybridization we are seeing more and more red on some of the offspring... and even yellow colors as well!







http://www.markbittner.net/parrot_pages ... rrots.html
http://mickaboo.org/wildparrots.html

Because they are not in their natural habitat, they are hybridizing. Why they didn't hybridize with a blue crown but they did with a mitred I dont know!


Through all of this however, there is supposedly one species of rosella that scientists do believe came about between the hybridization of two rosella species... and over a period of time became it's OWN species. Hard to say...
http://www.birds.org.au/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rosellas
http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? ... hat&P=4913
http://www.philipmaher.com/2001to2002.html
http://www.camacdonald.com/birding/Samp ... rrots.html


So yes, your arguement about hybrids occuring naturally is viable... however at the same time, it's only viable when speaking of birds in their NATURAL habitat... not birds who live in a habitat that is unnatural to that species... Heck, there is even a wild pair of cockatoos in New Zealand that paired up and created offspring! A person goes in, removes the chicks, finishes handraising them, then sells them to the public.

"...they don't necessarily KNOW to pick the RIGHT mate... or for the fact that maybe the hybrids were captive born then became wild."

On one hand aviculturists talk about the degree of intelligence the parrots possess.......then come along & contradict that by infering they're incapable of knowing what is RIGHT or WRONG for themselves. Who the blankety-blank are WE to determine what is right or wrong for another species??? Just look how we, as a species.....supposedly THE most intelligent of them all......have desecrated this planet....to the point that it will not be habitable for ANY species much longer. And I, for one, am so thankful that miscegenation has not been as big an issue for them (parrots) as it has been for our own species.

"...or for the fact that maybe the hybrids were captive born then became wild?"

I know there's a lot of info to cover on that site, but it does state that they met in the woods..........they weren't paired by a human in an aviary.

And if these guys have been surviving out in those woods in Europe for the past 30+ years, I'd certainly have granted them honorary native "species-ship" by now! I'm sure it seems quite NATURAL to them after all these years. And jeeeeez......the US can't do enough to make it's alien species feel at home here.............. Sorry, I realize this is not a political forum. My apologies.

And I kind of miss that point entirely, 'cause WE are captive breeding endangered species.....in sanctuaries......reserves......preserves......what have you, & then releasing them back into the wild.... But NOT necessarily into their "natural" habitat. In many instances, that is gone forever......pillaged by OUR species. They have NO natural habitat to be returned to. So we have to substitute areas that are protected & safe for them but still as similar as possible to what once was their home. "Un-natural" as it may be..........................

For those who think that "all you have to do is separate the 2 birds what are in a less-than-desirable pair-bond" and deny that most of the large birds do "mate for life" ...
1. We are talking about a captive-breeding situation, in an aviary.
2. When was the last time an aviary keeper allowed 2 male macaws to fight over a female?
3. Since when has separating bonded pairs been as easy as doing the laundry? Remember that black sock that keeps sneaking in with the white underwear?
4. Do you really want to find out "who gives up first"? When will the bird quit screaming across the aviary for its mate? When will it accept the new mate ? When will you decide that you made a series of bad decisions in the beginning, and shoulda, coulda, wouda, but it's all one big mess now.

I am soooo glad I was not the one to first note the apparent intentional misrepresentation of a perfectly beautiful website, one devoted to feral parrots surviving (with some human intervention) in an evironment totally unnatural to them. There is nothing "wild" about it, other than the exotic birds all flying free, which by the way is the True Beauty of that particular website, parrots living and flying free the way nature created them to. I have seen that site many times, as it is my dream to free flight all of my fids. I never saw any particular reference in that site that glorifies the hybridization of macaws and other parrots. That is not what that site is about. But, what else could we expect from that foul mouthed, self-inflated, self-promoting B. the B., except to twist things to justify her own unnatural habit, which includes purposefully breaking up and re-pairing over and over again, both proven & bonded pairs to recreate what nature designed for her own designs so she can blast all over the internet about how WONDERFUL she is, and what a GREAT reputation she has. I personally heard it's not so good, and have heard that she keeps all of her re-paired hybrid intended macaw pairs in 2 x 2 x 2 foot cages suspended from the rafters in her filthy basement that is rarely cleaned and has poor ventilation. What else should we expect from a Real Work of Art like that???

And I just happen to have one of those "2X2X2's" vacant.........reserved just for you, Ms. X. I'd put your name on it for you, but, of course, you're not proud enough of your own name to use it! And the only filth around here is what's coming out of that putrescent mouth of yours.

You're starting to sound like wallpaper coming unglued....peeling off the wall. But also dangerous......and we all know, only too well, that people that just spew venom (I think they're called snakes), and make these wild, baseless statements, often wind up doing much worse.....if they're ignored. I thought you were just a lowly lying, slandering, racist, self-important, trouble making hate monger. But I'm beginning to find your verbal diatribe frightening. There's definitely an escalation here.

Even though you "can't" be identified, because I maintain a home & aviary that is open to scouts, school kids, etc., I will be extra vigilent knowing there's another fanatic out there after a piece of me.

Barb

caraparrots wrote: I will be extra vigilent knowing there's another fanatic out there after a piece of me.
Barb

Don't flatter yourself. I am not the least bit interested in a "piece" of you. I am sure you don't taste good, because of your poor taste in communication. I am tired of being the one constant target for your barbs , even though I have not been addressing or referring to you. I even attempted to interact with you kindly, which you took as an insult, when it wasn't. So, I thought you might enjoy being stung back for a change. BTW, most everyone on this message board are relatively anonymous, except for you, who is here to boast & promote yourself.

Don't you two think this has carried on long enough. Neither of you are going to change the others mind & all it is is name calling now.

Please if we can't say anything good on this topic anymore, can we just not say anything!!!!!!!!

Chris, I don't even want to interact with her. She keeps singling me out smearing my name and my posts, and attacking me, even when I am not addressing her. She is always on the defensive probably because she is arrogant enough to think that everything is always about her when it isn't. She just wants to fight. A girl can only take so many direct hits before instinctually slapping back. I will ignore her from now on. I am tired of it. Mary

swindiana57 wrote:Don't you two think this has carried on long enough. Neither of you are going to change the others mind & all it is is name calling now.

Please if we can't say anything good on this topic anymore, can we just not say anything!!!!!!!!

Good for you Mary.
I'm all for a little banter back & forth but once to breaks down to name calling, well that's where it needs to stop. At that point no one learns or gains from it.

Chris, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I have been under quite a bit of stress from the excessive long work hours preparing client's paperwork for tax season (which is almost over, Thank God, except for some extensions) Then I come here to relax and read on Up@Six and find myself the target of a one wo-man firing squad for no real reason. I did not respond several times, but the hits kept coming anyhow. I eventually slipped, and let myself get pissed. It wont happen again. Well, I'm off to work. Talk atcha later,
Smiles,
Mary

swindiana57 wrote:Good for you Mary.
I'm all for a little banter back & forth but once to breaks down to name calling, well that's where it needs to stop. At that point no one learns or gains from it.

All you had to say was tax prep. I'm a son of an accountant & from mid Jan. till virtually May I felt I was fatherless. So I know from where you speak.

Thank God or the IRS or who ever is in charge, it's almost over girl. Like you said a few extensions & you only have your normal work load for 9 months right, lol.

By the way I just put a deposit on a green wing baby. The aviary is about 5 hrs away but in looking & listening on here I felt it was the best place to deal with.

Give me an idea of how you think my M2 might react to this little guy.

I've always wanted a macaw & do to the info on here I decided on a green wing. I hope this was the right decision. As most know when it comes to birds it probably wasn't the smartest decision, lol.

Congratulations, Chris! My M2 was still a yongster when my first macaw (B&G) came home, a baby too. The M2 seemed to have eyes only for mommy, oblivious to all other birds, whether they were here when she arived or came along afterward. As 3 more macaws arrived over time, she remained far more self- and mom-centered than any other bird I've had. All mine were smaller than GWs, so your experience might be different.

Paca

Thank You Paca.

I have never had a macaw & like your 2, Lollie who by the way laid her first egg today. That was a surprise!!!!!! Lollie is very into me. I'm her boyfriend & the wife she likes but would rather have me. The boy & grandpa that lives with us, she tolerates at best. So I'm hoping that this new birdy won't be a huge problem.

caraparrots wrote:On one hand aviculturists talk about the degree of intelligence the parrots possess.......then come along & contradict that by infering they're incapable of knowing what is RIGHT or WRONG for themselves. Who the blankety-blank are WE to determine what is right or wrong for another species??? Just look how we, as a species.....supposedly THE most intelligent of them all......have desecrated this planet....to the point that it will not be habitable for ANY species much longer. And I, for one, am so thankful that miscegenation has not been as big an issue for them (parrots) as it has been for our own species.

LOL Well I do agree with you there! However, it's just a matter of ethics, or rather should the breeding of two different species of birds, both of which are becoming increasingly more rare in the wild, to happen in captivity? Or should we try and preserve the species as much as possible, both in the wild and in captivity? Think about all the hyacinth hybrids that are coming out... You gotta think about how messed up these birds really are... because on one hand you've got a bird who eats primarily macadamian nuts, brazil nuts, walnuts, almonds, etc... and these birds are bred with another species that their diet isn't necessarily so high in fats and carbohydrates.

Click to enlarge

And if these guys have been surviving out in those woods in Europe for the past 30+ years, I'd certainly have granted them honorary native "species-ship" by now! I'm sure it seems quite NATURAL to them after all these years. And jeeeeez......the US can't do enough to make it's alien species feel at home here.............. Sorry, I realize this is not a political forum. My apologies.

It may be natural to these birds now, having lived there for so long... but then the question is, is can they get adequate amounts of proper food to live off of? Their natural habitat contains foods that they'd eat on a regular basis. When brought into another area, these foods may be in less supply or non-existent. Thus, they must find other foods to feed off of... and with this comes issues, as they may be eating the foods that NATIVE species are eating, thus shortening the food supply for these other birds, or animals.

And I kind of miss that point entirely, 'cause WE are captive breeding endangered species.....in sanctuaries......reserves......preserves......what have you, & then releasing them back into the wild.... But NOT necessarily into their "natural" habitat. In many instances, that is gone forever......pillaged by OUR species. They have NO natural habitat to be returned to. So we have to substitute areas that are protected & safe for them but still as similar as possible to what once was their home. "Un-natural" as it may be..........................

I do know of some places that have tried reproducing certain species and trying to reintroduce them into what was once their natural habitat... for example, the thick billed parrot/conure. It was once native to Arizona, however easily gets "over-looked" due to the carolina parakeet/conure/parrot, which became extinct. They wanted to bring the thick billed back into the states, however the birds couldn't learn how to live off the wild thus the reintroduction was a failure.

As far as trying to introduce them to a place that has never been their natural habitat? The only instances I've heard of this is where a pet owner gets tired of their pet and lets them fly away expecting them to survive.... or when birds became illegal to import... people would set them loose at the airports. But then you may be right about places that have reserved land for trying to reintroduce some birds back into the wild.

1. We are talking about a captive-breeding situation, in an aviary.

Are we really? The original posting is about choosing a macaw, and the person was thinking about a hybrid... has nothing to do with breeding the hybrids...

In short, we've gone off topic from the original posting...

2. When was the last time an aviary keeper allowed 2 male macaws to fight over a female?

Okay, so this may have nothing to do with macaws, but someone once set up several pairs of eclectus in the same flight... they were getting very little to no eggs from the hens... thus they decided to try something new... and by allowing the eclectus pairs to be together in one flight, many of the birds chose new mates or even became singles. Okay, so breeders may not normally do this, however it is possible to set up a bad pair, and repairing the birds may make better parents.... through all of this however we aren't really allowing birds to choose appropriate mates, we are choosing for them, in most circumstances.

3. Since when has separating bonded pairs been as easy as doing the laundry? Remember that black sock that keeps sneaking in with the white underwear?

I am by no means a breeder, let alone own any large parrots... but I do at least understand some of the hardships some of these large parrot owners go through... and in short, well I know it's not necessarily easy to break up a pair, unless of course it's a bad pairing in the first place. But, if you have two birds of a different species paired up, it is IMO that they should not be encouraged to be bred... I have nothing against hybrids, I actually LOVE looking at the various possibilities of hybrids... I just don't necessarily think it's really in the best interest as a bird species to allow hybridization, especially in the rarer species.

A good example of why I have this opinion can easily be seen in the Spix Macaw... a macaw that may very well be extinct now in the wild, and the ONLY way to preserve this species is to continue breeding in captivity. What if all other macaws became extinct in the wild? How are we to preserve a species when we are creating hybrids of them? How are we to preserve a species when some of these hybrids look nearly, almost or completely identical to a pure species? I know of someone who purchased what they thought was a blue and gold macaw... however the macaw was a little greener than should be, and there was a white mark down the front of the beak... otherwise this bird looked like a blue and gold!

4. Do you really want to find out "who gives up first"? When will the bird quit screaming across the aviary for its mate? When will it accept the new mate ? When will you decide that you made a series of bad decisions in the beginning, and shoulda, coulda, wouda, but it's all one big mess now.

Through all of this, I really haven't had anything to say about separating bonded pairs until now. But even then I'm not really saying one should separate a [true] bonded pair even if they are a hybrid pair... only that they shouldn't encourage breeding in a hybrid pair.



I'm not here to argue ethics and the like... however, I would be interested in other responses regarding these topics.