upatsix.com - Your Source For Pet Bird Information

Hello Everyone,
I sold a Grey baby to a Client on January 1. She was weaned 2 weeks prior to going to her new family.
All of the sudden she quit eating and went from 360g to 295g.After being with her new family for 4 weeks. I am now feeing her 4 small feedings a day so she doesnt loose any more weight. She follows me from one side of the room to the other just making the feed me noise.
She's been vet checked and blood work done on her and everything came back fine. She's moapy and NOTHING like the baby I sent to her new home.
She Clipped her wings and cut her nails WAY to short. Now she seems off balance and unsure of herself. She was talking and making all kinds of noises. She was VERY playful and loved everyone!! She's not playful anymore she just sits on her perch and makes a feed me noise.
This is a first for me!
Does anyone have any ideas?

Thankyou,
Lorrie

Stelor wrote:... She Clipped her wings and cut her nails WAY to short...

She's been traumatized and needs comforting while she regains her confidence and her strength. Cutting nails way too short HURTS and leaves them sore for several days. She probably was fearful of being hurt again by the same person.

Weaning is a process with both physical and emotional components. It's not at all uncommon for a baby who was eating independently for the breeder to revert to begging and wanting/needing handfeeding when taken to a new home. It has to be frightening for a baby to suddenly lose everyone and everything she's ever known. If the new family isn't bird-wise (and this one surely seems not to have been), they may frighten her further with noise, toys, poor cage placement, too little sleep, different food, and the physical torture of cutting off toenails way too short.

Thank goodness you're there to help her recover. That dramatic weight loss has surely done a sad lot of physical damage, on top of the emotional trauma. Has your avian vet examined her and recommended healthy ways to rebuild her body? She might need a product like Avi-Booster to protect her immune system during her recovery.

Please let us know how she does. Hoping she re-blossoms, poor baby.

Paca

"""""""She Clipped her wings and cut her nails WAY to short. Now she seems off balance and unsure of herself."""""""''
That's not surprising at all. A parrot should be allowed to have full grown wings until they're at least 8 mts old. In that 8 mts, they learn about balance, coordination and most importantly, they build up muscle strength which is vital. They also have a better sense of being assured about their capabilities. If you're a breeder, you should pound it into a customer's head that clipping is a no no until they have strength and balance even if it's gonna cause some aggravation to the owners.

I've never heard 8 mos. as an appropriate age. In my experience, most folks recommend letting babies fledge and fly freely for a couple of weeks before clipping, nothing more than that. Can you explain why 8 months? Not trying to be argumentative, just interested to learn more

Thanks,
Pat

They can learn quite a bit of flying within 8 months.... in comparison flying for 2-4 weeks isn't very long. Of course, a bird should remain flighted so they could keep in shape with exercise.... but not every home is safe enough to have a flighted bird.

Most flighted birds are probably less clumsy than clipped birds... and greys can be pretty clumsy when young... so that may also be another factor...

"I've never heard 8 mos. as an appropriate age. "

I'm very surprised that you never heard of this. It's not a new fact that's been discovered. It's been on bird boards for years. Most discussions that have to do with clipping have to do with how many months, not weeks that a bird should not be clipped. A minimum of 6 mts should be a guiding line but more time gets much better results depending on the amount of daily exercise it gets. Measuring a success rate when it only involves 7 or 8 ft isn't being accurate. It takes months to build up muscle strength in the breast area . It takes months to learn coordination and constant sure proof balance. Cutting wings just after they fledge, wean, are independent is a bad thing to do especially if a person decides to let the wings grow back. Some people would even say it borders on being unintentionally cruel.

I'll tell you what...instead of responding quickly, visit a few grey boards and see what the standard is concerning clipping of wings. You'll also be able to see how the bird develops strength evenly. Breast muscle covers the keel bone which is located vertically in the middle of the breast. When muscle in that area isn't developed, that keel bone can break on contact with a floor. It's more liable to happen to a bird that doesn't have balance or coordination. Believe it or not, broken keel bones are not only common but most of the time, are attributed to lack of balance, coordination, muscle strength and poor clipping technics.
Personally, I'm against wing clipping but the individual has to decide on what to decide on. It's an individual decision. They should learn how to fly and have balance though. After all, they're birds right?

Mr Spock wrote:"I've never heard 8 mos. as an appropriate age. "

I'm very surprised that you never heard of this. It's not a new fact that's been discovered. It's been on bird boards for years. Most discussions that have to do with clipping have to do with how many months, not weeks that a bird should not be clipped. A minimum of 6 mts should be a guiding line but more time gets much better results depending on the amount of daily exercise it gets. Measuring a success rate when it only involves 7 or 8 ft isn't being accurate. It takes months to build up muscle strength in the breast area . It takes months to learn coordination and constant sure proof balance. Cutting wings just after they fledge, wean, are independent is a bad thing to do especially if a person decides to let the wings grow back. Some people would even say it borders on being unintentionally cruel.

I'll tell you what...instead of responding quickly, visit a few grey boards and see what the standard is concerning clipping of wings. You'll also be able to see how the bird develops strength evenly. Breast muscle covers the keel bone which is located vertically in the middle of the breast. When muscle in that area isn't developed, that keel bone can break on contact with a floor. It's more liable to happen to a bird that doesn't have balance or coordination. Believe it or not, broken keel bones are not only common but most of the time, are attributed to lack of balance, coordination, muscle strength and poor clipping technics.
Personally, I'm against wing clipping but the individual has to decide on what to decide on. It's an individual decision. They should learn how to fly and have balance though. After all, they're birds right?

Well, sorry to surprise you with the depths of my ignorance. I did quite a bit of reading and talked with a number of bird owners & breeders before becoming a parront. Most of what I read & heard about fledging was couched in terms of weeks rather than months. I guess the "few grey boards" you visit are different from the ones I visited. In fact, "instead of responding quickly," I did a quick google search (grey parrot fledge). Here are the only clear timelines I found on the first page of the results:

"at least a month"
http://www.africangreys.com/articles/be ... hobia.html

"several weeks"
http://netpets.com/birds/reference/beha ... edge2.html

"at least eight weeks":
http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/ ... light.html

Long enough for the bird to learn to fly with "control and precision"
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww25ev.htm

"There's no magic number":
http://www.itsagreysworld.com/articles/misconcept.htm

So I guess if you want me to "visit a few grey boards and see what the standard is concerning clipping of wings," you are going to have point me at the ones you've been reading, because I couldn't find any reference to your particular magic number.

I don't pretend to be an expert; I have only what I have learned from reading and my own experience. My TAG was clipped before he left the breeder at about 14 weeks. Given what you are saying, I must have a VERY unusual bird, as he recovered without a bobble from the "cruelty" and is now a graceful and confident little flyer... sometimes too much so!

I appreciate your wanting the best for our birds; we all do. But please don't assume that just because someone doesn't share your particular lore or viewpoint, s/he is in need of basic education on birds' psychology *or* their anatomy. Differences of opinion exist and they probably always will; folks deserve respect even if their views differ from yours.

JMO,
Pat

The confusion here is the meaning of the word Fledge.

Fledge is the stage in a young bird's life when the feathers and wing muscles are sufficiently developed for accurate flight and distance. This stage cannot be successfully developed with a 4 MT or 5 MT old parrot especially heavy short tailed parrots like greys, amazons

These are your links


http://www.itsagreysworld.com/articles/misconcept.htm

"""""African Greys and all parrots need to be fledged properly. The meaning of the phrase "fledged properly" means to allow a properly weaning baby parrot to learn to become an agile flyer. There is no set time limit for a baby grey to learn to fly. They need to be able to become graceful in landings and take offs, to hover and turn on a moments notice, being able to land on your hand from 20 feet away.

Giving a baby grey the freedom to learn to fly will give him the self-assurance he/she will need throughout their lives. I cannot express enough the importance of this. I have two birds that went through a terrible phase, luckily one recovered without behavioral issues. """"""



==================================================================

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww25ev.htm

""""""Allowing a baby bird to learn to fly enables him to develop coordination and control. He learns to land where he intends to land, learns how to flutter to the floor safely and learns how to control his body. After he is clipped, this knowledge and confidence stays with him. A bird who knows how to control his body is much less likely to be injured.

If a Grey is clipped before he learns to fly with competence and control, he may not become a confident out-going bird. He may be fearful and insecure because he has not discovered his body's natural grace. This grace is learned through flight proficiency.

A baby Grey should be allowed to fully fledge. If the birds and the babies are clipped on an individual basis - taking into account their confidence level, strength, determination and power - this learned control and flying skill has become ingrained in the birds. As a consequence, they are much less likely to land awkwardly when fluttering to the floor.

I let my babies fly until I can't stand it anymore, but I have a high tolerance for inconvenience."""""

====================================================================

http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/feathersandflight.html

""""""""""fourth disadvantage concerns only some species, in whom the removal of flight ability can arouse significant feelings of vulnerability. This is true for some Red-tailed (Congo) African Greys, especially the more passive personalities among this species. Some individuals are genetically predisposed to experience more anxiety and fear than are others, and for these birds, clipping can result in increased behavior problems related to anxiety.

Lastly, there is a profound disadvantage to baby parrots in never being allowed to fledge and develop good flight skills prior to being clipped. I raise African Greys on a small scale. Each baby is fledged and flies for at least 8 weeks before any clipping is done. I have also taken in several older African Greys, who had lost their homes for one reason or another. Thus, I have had ample opportunity to observe the personality differences between those birds I have reared, fledged and kept, and those individuals I rescued who never had the opportunity to fly. The difference is like night and day.

When a young bird fledges, he learns to think. He learns to act volitionally. He goes through a mental and physical process every time he takes a flight. He decides that he wants to move, where he wants to go, then must figure out how high and fast he must fly to get there, and when to stall and hover prior to landing. This is a complex series of thoughts and actions.

If a parrot does not learn to think and act volitionally as a fledgling, there is little chance that he will ever do so, even if his flight feathers are allowed to grow out. I have three rescued older African Greys here who, although fully flighted, will sit in one place all day if I do not move them. They never learned to act with volition. Even though they are physically able to fly, it does not occur to them to do so.

I do not think that every species has such a profound reaction to being clipped as a youngster, but we might imagine that there is not the full development of the personality that takes place if, as a young bird, the parrot learns that he can go places if he wants to, and learns the attendant flight skills that enable him to do so. Simply put, flight enables personality development and expression."""""'

===============================================================

http://netpets.com/birds/reference/behavioral/gryfledge2.html

"""""More often than I like to hear, baby African Greys are clipped immediately after their first or second flight. This allows no time for them to gain confidence in their flying skills. I feel fledging is vital to the long term mental well-being of an African Grey. I theorize that baby Greys allowed a fledging period of several weeks are much less likely to feather pick a few years down the road, than their counterparts clipped after a single fledged flight.

Another large problem lies in the actual wing clipping of African Greys. Many people, whether they are veterinarians, pet store personnel, or even inexperienced breeders, clip African Greys like they would any other parrot. Greys are large bodied birds, not slip and not particularly graceful. Aerodynamic is not a word used to describe African Greys. Too often the wings of African Greys are butchered, causing the Grey to drop to the floor like a lead weight. Obviously this is dangerous as many Greys have split their chests open when hitting the floor. This type of wing clip and the dramatic landing results also causes trauma to the birds. If this unfortunate situation is the case with your African Grey, please allow the wings to grow out. Make sure the Grey re-learns, if necessary, how to fly, and have the bird properly trimmed once flight skills and self confidence are restored.""""""""""""""
==============================================

http://www.africangreys.com/articles/be ... hobia.html

( and this has to do with Phobia)

""""""'Knowledgeable, understanding breeders like Phoebe Linden of Santa Barbara Bird Farm and Jean Pattison, Florida's African Queen, emphasize the importance of letting parrots fledge normally. Technically when a bird fledges it learns to fly. From that moment on the bird is in a different social structure than when it was in a nest being fed by its parents. As an animal that can fly the young parrot leans where and what to eat, how to respond socially to others of its own species.

In the wild, fledging is more than just learning to fly. It is where a young parrot's social personality starts to develop. Young Grey parrots interact with one another playing games that teach them future skills. They follow their parents to foraging areas, where they learn to eat. They learn who their natural predators are by following and watching older Greys.

One problem encountered with domestically bred Greys that are allowed to fledge is that they may not be left flighted long enough to develop self-confidence. """""""""
*****************************************************

Now, as far as you thinking that I'm simply trying to convert people to my way of thinking---I said to go to other boards that are similar to this board where loads of individual owners are and read their experiences. I never said that you should go to areas where articles can be gotten. You don't need to go to bird boards to get those articles. All a person has to do is type in the author.They're generalized articles which might or might not pertain to individual people and their birds

As far as all of these so called well known authors are at, there are two very well known authors ( Bobbi Brinker--Maggie Wright) that just happen to post things on a well know bird board called the Manhattan Bird Club and if you read some of their posts, you'll see that they're constantly disagreeing with one another. Each one thinks they're right. At the end of each of their posts, they make sure they put their link in where you can purchase their book.

PS--concerning well known authors--be careful of the ones that decide tio give a set of instructions on how to clip a bird's wings in their articles

So, sorry if you think I'm putting you down. Just remember that the links above were the ones you posted. It's their words, not mine.

I have a one year old Grey that I bought at a pet store. When at the store they were feeding her Tropicana. I brought her home with a bag of the tropicana from the store, and a one pound bag of Harrisons high potency. The first week she would only eat the harrisons. I was so pleased. She ate it so fast I bought a five pound bag. Well as soon as that five pound bad was opened she decided she didn't like it anymore. She also will not eat the tropicana. After a day of this she had lost some weight, so I offered her some Harrisons hand feeding with some of the harrisons high potency soaked into a mash. Well of course she loves this. She has now gained about 30 grams from the weight she was at the petstore. I have been told that when birds start to bond to someone new they sometimes revert back to being a baby, hence the desire to be hand fed again.

My question is, will this be a fad and will she eventually stat eating hard foods on her own again? I should add she eats plenty of fresh fruit and vegis on her own, as well as almonds, but not pellets. Spoiled, or just acting normal? Any help is appreciated.

thanks,
Chris

Chris, you do whatever it takes to keep that baby's weight up and offer her as many healthy foods as you can. Just weigh her every day and make sure she isn't losing weight. As long as she isn't losing weight, you can leave the pellets in her bowl. She will probably eat them but sounds like the hand feeding is comforting right now.

If she's eating lots of other healthy veggies and fruit and nuts, that is a good thing.

Bev