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greygirl · by **greygirl** on Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:19 pm

Hi! Got the message sent to my e-mail. I'm here. Hi, everyone!

I can't remember if Zupreem contains soy or not but I STOPPED feeding it to my birds ... especially Einstein, the plucking grey.

I'm amazed how the vets push and push pellets. In my opinion, pellets are good for those days that you are away from the house for many hours. It's not something to give daily. Fresh fruits, veggies, and sprouted grains are the best.

If you are to get pellets, I get the Foundation Formula. I believe I get mine from birdsafe.com

As for the latest on Einstein ... SHE'S FLYIN' ALL OVER THE HOUSE AGAIN! She still has a plucked chest. I think the biggest culprit is boredom. I have to fill foraging toys nightly to be sure that she has that to play with in the morning - the most boring time for her (before mommy wakes up).

BTW, here is something silly, but I HOPE is informative: www.youtube.com/user/parrotcare101 More videos to come and one serious one about her plucking/previous baldness.

Susan, Puppy, Einstein

MFids · by **MFids** on Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:05 am

Susan, I haven't been following all your threads on Einstein but thought I'd go back and look through your posts.

You mention Feeding Feathers. Fantastic group! Are you feeding approximately 15% pulses, 30% grains, 45% veggies, 10% fruits, along with sprouted seeds, occasionally cooked eggs, whole grain pastas, whole grain breads, etc? Do you feed sweet potatos? As far as pellets go, I'd recommend TOP's, Foundation Formula (either blend, perhaps), or Roudybush. Since you have a plucker, you might want to go with the Rice Diet. (Q&A - Rice Diet).

Feeding Feathers also recommends feeding supplements... viewing your videos, I see that you do provide them! Red Palm Oil and Cod Liver Oil are both said to be good, also. I know you mentioned you got some RPO. Have you been using it? How much? How often? Are you still using it?

In a previous post, you mentioned Einstain had a yeast and staph infection. Is she healed from that?

What are your thoughts on Pluck No More? Another suggestion is Avicalm and Featheriffic from Avitec.com. Did you try the aloe vera in the water? And if so, did you notice any changes?

You mentioned you were overly stressed... are you doing better? You may want to do some anti-stress things for yourself... such as exercising, yoga, going for a walk, getting out and away from the house for a couple of hours, out in the country, or whatever you find most relaxing. (doing a proper warm-up stretch routine plus some vigorous exercise is a great way to loosen your muscles and get rid of some pent up energy!)

Speaking of exercise... daily flight is also great for birds! But you already knew that! :wink:

It really sounds like you've gotten a lot of good advice and Einstein does look better! I'm just tossing out some more ideas for ya! As for foraging and toys, perhaps you'll find these links helpful, to give ya soom more ideas!

Articles on foraging...
HolisticBird and HolisticBirds
Foraging for Parrots
Parrot Enrichment
Foraging Ahead
http://www.birdboard.com/forum/avian-related-news-articles/539717-easy-foraging-ideas.html
Kibibi's InfoSuperFlyway - Top Ten Favorite Parrot Foraging Toys

Below are some ideas for toys and toy making supplies!
PEAB / PEAB
PEAB2 / PEAB2
Cheep Parrot Toys N Tips
Bird Toy Outlet
Birdy Boredom Busters
Birds Just Wanna Have Fun
Twin Leather Company
For the Love of Birds - For Birds Sake Toys
Nalani Toys
Parrotdise Perch
Talon Treasures
California Bird Nerds--Simple Joys and Safer Bird Toys

You've been doing a fantastic job with Einstein! Keep it up! Any new pics???

greygirl · by **greygirl** on Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:35 pm

Hi, MFids & All:

Before I respond, I have to say that I just found barbared feathers all below Einstein's perch just now. I'm so upset. She hasn't done this in a long time. I was under stress tonight and I took the two birds out for living room/kitchen time as I sat on the phone with two people going over a 10 page contract for work ... and the deadline is tomorrow! I wonder if Einstein felt my stress. My poor girl!

She was barbaring a bit a few days ago and I think it may have been from the holiday fun. They had a lot of outside cage time and lots of scratches by mommy in front of the TV. Perhaps this confused her....

I also noticed Einstein is "crying" a lot. It's heartbreaking the way she looks distraught and ... squeeks! Today I think she did it because she didn't want her mash & sprouts. I think she wanted seeds! seeds! seeds! and fattening nuts! Birds can become addicted! I have been using nuts in her foraging toys to get her to forage. Oh! It works alright! She wants those nuts, but she is so addicted.

Things were going so well, but recently, things started to plunge. See, featherpicking and plucking is an ongoing thing you have to always watch....

Ok. Now for MFid's message:
My mash only consists of sprouted grains and veggies & fruit. I want to start adding legumes, but I always overcook them and they get mushy. I want to offer the birds different things, but not too different. I don't want to shock them. They're accustomed to things ... and addicted. I need them to eat more variety. They like pasta. I haven't done the whole grain as it's also something they are addicted to so I give it only on occassion (BTW, when I say addicted, I don't mean the medical term, but the favorite-food-obsession term. Like how humans have favorite unhealthy foods ... and we don't stop! Hard to go from our french fries to ... broccoli. You know? Similar thing....

We eat yams. Not sure of the difference between yams & sweet potatos. We eat yams quite frequently, but the macaw only eats on occassion. I have been sneaking yam organic baby food into birdie bread I make once a month.

As for Red Palm Oil, I've tried to sneak it into their food. They don't like. Oh how I wish I could sneak it to them again! Any suggestions? In omlettes don't work. These birds have really become spoiled and notice EVERYTHING!

Einstein doesn't have the infections any more, but it's time for a check up now. Esp. with her barbaring again. This is new! She's been great for a long time now. I wonder if it's from holiday fun and Mommy's work stress.....

As for Pluck No More, I don't want to try it again right now. it's only a temporary band aid. I have some here. It's very expensive, but I like to get to the root of Einstein's problem. For a temporary sooth, I like to offer her warm camomille tea. I didn't try the aloe vera as the feather plucking group and one of the vets said that it's best not to spray anything on them besides water as it may want them to pluck more. ... Or are you talking about aloe in the drinking water????

As for the stress, as I mentioned, work has me crazed. I exercise. I do yoga usually and love walking, but I am right next to New York City. There's no country and it's ... well ... normal to be stressed here! LoL! Only kidding! ... er ... well.... Also, Daddy works very hard and they miss him a lot. Anyway, once this work contract is finished, I can relax a bit. The New Year will be better.

Thanks!!! Sorry for rambling.
Susan, Puppy, Einstein

BTW, I'm looking for a top vet in the country for my macaw (Puppy). She has a rare eye lid condition and 4 vets haven't been able to figure it out....

MFids · by **MFids** on Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:22 am

I know stress can certainly do it! I have two birds who mutilate, one the tip of her wings, the other her stomach. Both are second hand plus birds. The one who mutilates her stomach, a cherry headed conure, hasn't hurt herself within the past several months, but that's not to say she wont do it within the next several months. She *HAS* gotten better than when I first got her. The other is a cockatiel, and she's been good for the past week or so, but she still mutilates on and off. I do recall one time when I only had just Noel (conure), and I was probably 11-15 miles away. Noel hadn't mutilated herself for some time, so she was doing good. However, on this particular day I had lost something and it had really upset me. When I had gotten home, I found that Noel had mutilated herself. She is in no way a hands on type of bird, as she does not crave human interaction, yet I feel that even though I was miles away she still felt my stress, and took it out on herself. Then again I could very well be wrong and it was just a coincidence.

The legumes are better overcooked rather than undercooked. (if undercooked they can be toxic) Besides, I find that if I cook the beans, then put them through the food processor, it looks like bean dip. This is then mixed into the veggies, grains, and fruits, and all the birds eat it better. (turns out to be *gloop*, although having little guys most of the food they eat goes through the food processor anyway!). I also prefer soaking seeds (sprouts), beans, and grains for 24 hours rather than the usual 8-10 hours. At least the beans and then cooking them. I find that offering new foods within the mash, the birds end up eating it anyway as they may or may not be able to tell the difference.

Sweet Potato
Yam
Sweet potatos are most often found in the supermarkets (at least out west), and I remember an article from Feeding Feathers that suggested to not feed sweet potatos.

The recommendation that I've heard goes by the weight of your bird: 1/8 teaspoon up to 250g, 1/4 tsp up to 500g, ¼ to ½ tsp up to 1000g.

Did you use 1/4 tsp or more? Or less? You can certainly try mixing it into anything. Try spreading it on some toast/bread, putting it into some birdy bread, mixing with seeds/sprouts, pellets, whatever. You can try using less to get them accustomed to the taste.

Aloe vera can be given in their drinking water, in their bath water, or even giving them parts of the plant to chew on. I understand the concept that it may make a bird want to pluck more, but on the other hand, it may help sooth their skin. 25% aloe to 75% water, more or less. You certainly don't have to try it if you don't feel comfortable using it. There's also aloe detox that can be put in their water.

My cherry head, Noel, has elevated uric acid levels. (possible kidney issues) Vet prescribed flax seed oil, corn oil, and baby aspirin. The meds really didn't make much of a difference. I asked him about using "miracle cures" (items said to be great for this or that but it's all nonmedical stuff and the vet would have to research it, and it could take years...) and to say the least he didn't seem all that interested in me trying anything. Well, I did it anyway. I've offered black cherry juice, cherries, RPO, celery, celery seed, powdered eggshell, etc. This stuff did more for Noel within one week than the 'prescribed meds' did for her within several months.

Below is all I've got on avian vets...
Vet Finder

Birds N Ways - ABVP Certified Avian Veterinarians

The American Board of Veterinary Practitioners

Veterinarians & Pet Hospitals

Avian Vets of Australia

Australian Avian Vets

Avian Vets of Austria

Avian Vets of Germany

International Avian Vets

UK Avian Vets

Canadian Avian Vets

greygirl · by **greygirl** on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:53 am

Oh my! These holidays have taken a toll on my Einstein who has been doing soooo well! Her and the macaw, Puppy, were out of their cages ALL DAY yesterday as we were home relaxing and watching TV. She was in our bedroom, hanging out. Something she enjoys doing cause it gives her alone time to "chit-chat" to herself and to my horror, later that night, I found BARBARED feathers under her favorite place. This IS NEW! I think the holidays were too much for her. I think we don't treat her enough like a BIRD that she is and too much like family. Something I thought I'd never hear myself say, but they need to be BIRDS. Too much family and TV and scratch time may have caused this. I really don't know. The stress has went away for 2 days and the day before she was FINE. It seems that after a full out-of-the-cage day, she is barbaring! Very strange!

Birds are amazing. Especially when you mention your conure knew you were stresses from afar!

Ahhh! since I overcook legumes anyway, I should mash them with the rest of the mash. This way they get to eat it anyway! Thanks! "Gloop" is good if it's healthy!

How come you like soaking 24 hours? I actually soak about 8-10 and I like to sprout (leave out in a strainer covered) for 24 hours. It sprouts much better. Then they go in the fridge. If they go in the frige any sooner, they dont grow the little sprout tails. That's my experience. But then I rinse with apple cider vinegar just in case....

You read no Sweet Potato? Wow, I put organic baby food sweet potatoe in their birdie bread? What's wrong with Sweet Potatoe? (BTW, as for fresh ones, I only find yams by me.)

MFids · by **MFids** on Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:30 pm

I prefer to allow my birds to be birds, rather than human infants, if you will. I have a handraised cockatiel, and other than being the most hormonal bird, she's a real sweety! She's not aggressive or mean when hormonal, and when she lays eggs she has no problem with me touching and handling them! (which results in me removing them, of course!). She knows she's a bird and yet she still enjoys getting her scritches every day! Most of my birds aren't tame because they don't care for human interaction, and I don't push it on them. With that said, I have had two female cockatiels who have decided they wanted more one on one interaction, even though that consisted of me feeding them food from my hand first thing in the morning! Didn't matter that there was food set out for them to eat, they wanted it from me. The interesting thing about these two is that one was handraised (if not handfed) and was used to some human interaction in one point of her life, and the other was probably parent raised and never tamed, although I don't know for sure... I just know that when I got her she was not tame, and I haven't made any moves to tame her, either.

As for soaking, I like to soak the beans for at least 24 hours as they seem to cook better. I just soak them in the fridge and then cook them up. I do the same with grains even though I haven't noticed any difference there... it's just easier to put grains and beans in the fridge at the same time, soak for 24 hours, take out, and cook them up. As for soaking sprouts... well, I got one sprout mix from two different suppliers. One says to soak overnight and the other says to soak for 24 hours. Same exact mix. I can't recall if I've seen a difference or not in the amount of time the sprouts are soaked, as I haven't done the overnight soak in some months now. With sprouts though, I've got the jelly-jars with mesh lids. I just put the seeds in one, rinse well, then soak for about 24 hours, then rinse well, drain, and let it sit out. Rinse and drain 3 times a day. Sprouts are only in the fridge once they are done sprouting and I haven't used all the sprouts for the birds.

As for sweet potato, well that info came from Feeding Feathers...
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feed ... /Pluckers/

Here's the information from the last two articles that were posted...

We suggest that you start out by NOT offering the following foods to
your bird to see if you see improvement:

soy
corn (found in packaged foods/mixes or manufactured foods...organic table corn used as a vegetable should be ok, corn causing the most allergies is dent or field corn)
spirulina
wheat
peanuts
sweet potato
sunflower seed
semolina

Other foods that you may wish to try eliminating would be members of the nightshade family:
Sweet peppers
potato
tomato

There are several pre-made bird foods on the market. Avoid those with corn, pasta, wheat, soy, spirulina, peanuts. In a few cases its helped to avoid sweet potato and sunflower seed.

And here's a few posts that touch on the subject of sweet potatos (note, in the US, sweet potatos and yams may be the same thing)
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feed ... sage/57058
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feed ... sage/52418
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feed ... sage/42770

You can do a search on the group for "sweet potato" or "pluckers diet" and get even more results.

greygirl · by **greygirl** on Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:24 pm

Einstein's doing better in the last 3 days. Nothing different. A tad bit of Pluck No More. Something I spray on her only in emergencies when I see her barbering. (when she lost flight, she lost it in 3 days after starting to barber!)

I stopped giving Einstein & Puppy soy a long time ago. I never tried eliminating corn or sun flower seeds. I wills start with the corn as it's Einstein's favorite and take most of them out of her mix if not all and see how that works. I am really thinking that the holiday family time confused her and that's why she started plucking again. Too much Mommy-time is not good for an African Grey who is in love....

greygirl · by **greygirl** on Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:36 am

Another update. Einstein is looking the best she ever has in years (much better than the after photos in the beginning of this post. I will have to post new photos). I am PRAYING that by Christmas she will be flying again. I noticed that when she has a fall, she will pluck in the evening or in the morning. So, now instead of putting her in her room like she wants after a fall (and squeeks for), I give her a kiss and a "oops!" and instantly change the subject and do something to get her mind off the tumble. Just like with human babies. No fuss no muss.

As for Puppy (the macaw), well, she's over preening lately, but now I've surrounded her with her favorite toys and try to get her morning energy out with exercise instead of grooming. I play toss with her onto the perch and we flap her wings in front of the mirror. "Oh who is that pretty girl???!!!"

Susan (Puppy & Einstein)

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