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lucky35 wrote:what ever ,since you so into things and claiming unknown fact but i can back mine up ,, but thats besides the point if im not mistaking im glad you can afford 5500 hundred for the FEMALE keel bill toucan. as i know i cant. but i dont want any more since i do have enough to keep me busy i hope you find what you want ,, and get what you want,, but i do know cedar hill s look at his customers page and look for sox and bud honey and sunny and brandi and corkie, im a customer who knows him , so dont say i dont know anything about him ,, proof is i have his birds here , he knows me ,. and thats that. if i had the million bucks i would have took him on his offer of buying him out but i dont , and i dont want too breed ,i like my pets so thank you very much you dont know me and i dont know you , but i do know cedarhills

actually i couldn't afford to hold onto her (wet, sloppy droppings, chopped expensive fruit diet all the time) especially here in NY, so i sent her to Jerry Jennings where she can live out a nice happy life and hopefully breed.

however she will never be close-banded so i feel sorry for you talking about what facts you are backing up, especially the "ALWAYS" and bringing up band #s when occasionally C Hill OBVIOUSLY DOES sell unbanded birds, and there's nothing automatically wrong with that just as there's nothing automatically wrong with me not having a permit -- cuz none was required.

it's unfortunate this thread could be about actually sourcing HOffmans to more than just 1 breeder, but at least they are in good hands indeed as Eric is good people and i don't know why someone keeps dwelling on the breeder's reputation rather than the discussion at hand, continually making generalizations to defend something that doesn't even need defending and someone accusing of lying about having got unbanded birds and wanting proof that doesn't exist as there are no band numbers except the crimson bellies and fiery shoulders which sure enough have the initials you wanted to go on and talk about for whatever reason beyond me..

i do think it's cute you keep referring to sox and bud honey and sunny and brandi and corkie and i often think good old budgies (parakeets) are the perfect parrot in the perfect little package. i just hope you realize lsooner or later internet forums are written conversations, not just talking on the phone where you can say anything that sounds good like "always" or "somebody would never...." or somebody is lying for the matter.

Lucky just ignore NYC I have learned to I wish someone could stop this post like Hugh does when it is going bad well enough said! Just ignore NYC you are a good fid mom and we all know that so don't stoop to NYC'S level ignore him or her and hopefully they will go away!

kisa1200 wrote:Lucky just ignore NYC I have learned to I wish someone could stop this post like Hugh does when it is going bad well enough said! Just ignore NYC you are a good fid mom and we all know that so don't stoop to NYC'S level ignore him or her and hopefully they will go away!

please quote wherever you feel i have offended anyone, thank you.

I don't want to quote I just want you to stop!

NYC wrote:the one thing i like about my hoffman's is he looks the most "Aratinga" to me compared to all the other pyrhurras. to me he looks like a miniature version of my red throats and aztecs, compared to say GCs or MBs, because of his horn color beak, greener green, and bulkier build.

I agree with you there... the hoffmanns and rose crowned conures do look a lot like the bigger aratinga "x-mas" conures!

They are probably close enough to hybridize, yet not prosperously. Fertility would be an unknown, but probably infertile is my guess... I only say this as someone says that they have a chick born to a green cheek and sun conure pair... the only issue is that I haven't seen pictures for proof so can only go by their word.

As far as the hoffmann's, maybe they are not successfully producing because they are imports, quite possibly imported as adults... thus they may not feel secure enough to breed? Or have more strict breeding requirements than captive birds? But still, you'd think someone would have been successful.

MFids wrote:

NYC wrote:the one thing i like about my hoffman's is he looks the most "Aratinga" to me compared to all the other pyrhurras. to me he looks like a miniature version of my red throats and aztecs, compared to say GCs or MBs, because of his horn color beak, greener green, and bulkier build.

I agree with you there... the hoffmanns and rose crowned conures do look a lot like the bigger aratinga "x-mas" conures!

They are probably close enough to hybridize, yet not prosperously. Fertility would be an unknown, but probably infertile is my guess... I only say this as someone says that they have a chick born to a green cheek and sun conure pair... the only issue is that I haven't seen pictures for proof so can only go by their word.

As far as the hoffmann's, maybe they are not successfully producing because they are imports, quite possibly imported as adults... thus they may not feel secure enough to breed? Or have more strict breeding requirements than captive birds? But still, you'd think someone would have been successful.

a pyrhurra X aratinga chick ?!?! did it live? these two genus are so different.

comparatively hoffman's and rose fronted are so similar, i would picture it like breeding one aratinga species to any other aratinga, there is a big chance of fertility, especially in the males. in the females scientific theory says its greater chance of hybrid infertility (XY). but i've only seen that proved in cats, not birds, yet. ie in actuality i hear male avian hybrids often scope out sterile. i decided to get my hoffman's scoped out and see what the vet says, due to the rekindled interest i have in the species. i don't wanna see it go extinct! actually i'm not worried though, since at least Chill if not any other breeders in the world, is offering breeding pairs, it's likely he is actually producing by now. cuz the birds that came in in the 90's are getting old like mine, fast

have you heard of the australian video showing proof of a rose breasted cockatoo X cockatiel chick? i couldn't find a working link but the breeder even claimed it was the little tiel that was the female. now that's perplexing. not that the birds hybridized, but that a tiny tiel egg carried a 1/2 RBC all the way to hatch!

there ought to be a thread about all the known hookbill crosses up in here. not to encourage it, just to show interspecies and intergenus genetic compatibility at work, esp as modes of harnessing a desired genetic trait from one species and placing it in the other, perhaps one day for survival reasons, even. cuz it's only a matter of time, some generations ahead, if we survive as a species all the damage we are doing to our mother earth, we will eventually be doing interspecies dating and marriage all that with other mammalian sebaceans. ie, our own earthly dolphins aren't that different from humans, they're just smarter.

I've always wondered about interspecies hybrids. I have posted about this before, but I once read in BirdTalk about a bh Caique/Sun Conure hybrid clutch. Supposedly the babies all lived and grew up. They looked like BH Caiques but had pink feet (which I am confused by since I thought neither bird had pink feet) and each had a different color spot on their breast. I would never encourage interspecies breeding but genetics to intrigue me and I am always curious to see what something like that would look like (of course I know this is what makes people want to breed hybrids, but I figure, if it happens on accident, show the world and let them know, we are all hungry for knowledge!)

brimonster wrote:I've always wondered about interspecies hybrids. I have posted about this before, but I once read in BirdTalk about a bh Caique/Sun Conure hybrid clutch. Supposedly the babies all lived and grew up. They looked like BH Caiques but had pink feet (which I am confused by since I thought neither bird had pink feet) and each had a different color spot on their breast. I would never encourage interspecies breeding but genetics to intrigue me and I am always curious to see what something like that would look like (of course I know this is what makes people want to breed hybrids, but I figure, if it happens on accident, show the world and let them know, we are all hungry for knowledge!)

well the good thing is that such distant genus interbreeding like that awesome sun conure X bh caique cross is they produce a "designer" pet animal and there's nothing wrong with that as the interGENERIC offspring are almost certain to be all sterile mules that are limited to pets.

on the other side of that is the crossing of very similar yet distinct species. like a nanday and sun conure. it's possible the offspring can come out fertile, and then there's trouble if say the nandays "tazmanian devil" like screaming gets into the already notorious high pitch "schrill" scream of suns. very bad to make hybrids like that if they can recycle into the pure gene pools.

a grey area as i see it is intersubspecies hybrids. now that is very controversial. many people think it is wrong, because they are even more closely related than 2 different species, and scientifically they even are the same species, just different geographic populations, usually. i think oldschool aviculturists (if there were any back then aside from ornithologists that justs killed everything to preserve specimens) had the chance to save certain species (ie, the Puerto Rican conure) if they were open-minded to allow a one-time cross with another subspecies like the hispaniolan, especially since it happens anyway in between the two geographic regions half-hour flight away from each other (ironically most of the wild hispaniolan conures on the island of hispaniola actually look more like the all-green puerto rican instead of their own subspecies the white-fronted hispaniolan conure however its the Puerto Rican (A.c. maugei that is extinct)
just like a certain level of inbreeding is allowed for rescuing almost instinct species like bald eagles or certain cranes, etc.

i personally think there's nothing wrong with crossing suns with jendays or gold caps since all 3 are objectively the same species just different color varieties which ended getting labelled subspecies perhaps because their calls are different but not anywhere as vastly different as they are to the nandays or other aratingas.

ne way, luckily Cedar Hill has been successful enough now in breeding Hoffman's and Hispaniolan Conure so we don't have to worry about resorting to those measures, he just let me know he also has single hens so with $2000 i can get a single Hoffman's hen (600) and an unrelated full Hoffman's pair (1400) and that resolves that issue of sourcing. Yay!

I don't know about the pyrrhura and aratinga chick... someone else mentioned they've seen the crossing before, with chicks being between the size of a GC and a sun... at the same time they compared the hybridization of these two birds in a different genus to breeding two different breeds of dogs... where-in my opinion this is a very poor comparison of hybridization within a genus, or even family, when compared to an animal that not only shares the same family, but also genus, as well as species...

I.E

Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family - Genus - Species

Animalia - Chordata - Aves - Psittaciformes - Psittacidae - Aratinga - Sun Conure
x
Animalia - Chordata - Aves - Psittaciformes - Psittacidae - Pyrrhura - Green Cheek Conure

This goes to show that suns, jendays, etc are not of the same species but of the same genus... so to speak, they are not subspecies within a species... but rather a species entirely of their own accord, within a genus.

That also goes to show where the Sun and GC are within the animal kingdom... and below, is that of EVERY dog, no matter breed... with a SubPhylum [Verterbrata].

Animalia - Chordata - Verterbrata - Mammalia - Carnivora - Canidae - Canis - Domesticus


I'll state that I am not for hybridization... I actually hate the idea of people purposely hybridizing, especially more so when their simplest excuse is "because others do it". This only tells me that just because someone jumps off of a cliff to their death, that these people will follow in suit.

However, on the other hand, I am always interested in some of the various hybrids that DO come about, and have nothing against the hybrid birds themselves, since it certainly wasn't their fault for being so.


With that in mind, yes I have heard of the galatiel... and found it a pity that people went as far as even believing that the movie made of the galatiel was a fake.
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/worldfirst-galah.php
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/galatiel.php

There's also the scarlet chested parakeet x princess parrot...
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/worldfirst-scarlet.php
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/scarlet.php

There are also hybrids with the conures and macaws... such as a sun x hahns, and even a nanday x hahns (although they called it a hahns x jenday or a hahns x jenday x nanday cross). There's even a bird that is believed to be a sun x blue crown x mini macaw hybrid.

Be my guest if you please...
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0903/ ... ds/Hybrids

I may have heard of the caique x sun mix before, however without pictures I'm reluctant to believe it. I haven't seen pics of the GC x Sun although would greatly appreciate some considering that supposedly they have happened before...

As for hybridization, I have heard that within the hybrid macaws, the further you hybridize, the more chances for infertility arise. If this is so, I'm at least glad to hear in a sense that it means that there's a bigger chance for hybrids to be sterile, thus unlikely to reproduce.

As for subspecies hybridization... yeah kind of against that too, if at all possible! I wouldn't be surprised in the least if subspecies branched off and may have become so far independent within each other that they created new species... I mean, just look at the variations between the "X-Mas" conures, the red macaws, as well as the B&G and BT macaws. Hybridization DOES occur in nature, both in natural and unnatural circumstances. Occasionally, the crossings may start a new species which supposedly has happened, such as the adelaide rosella.

Hybridization I'm sure has happened within the various ringneck subspecies, as well as subspecies found in quakers, blue crown conures, and eclectus. Some forms of hybridization are said to be used to create mutations in species where these mutations are not known... as is said within some of the eye-ring lovebirds, and have heard supposedly with quakers and indian ringnecks to create a white quaker, or even supposedly with some of the alexandrian mutations starting from indian ringneck stock.


In the least bit of it all, I am glad you were able to get something worked out with Cedar Hills! Hopefully you'll have great success breeding the species, and if the hen is unrelated to the pair, you can easily make 3 lines of breeders, if not more, by pairing the two pairs (if all goes as planned and you are greeted with success) offspring with each other.

WOW fertile transgenic white quakers by way of RINGNECKs ?!?

Now why can't someone find a viable pairing to inject some significant mutation body feather colors into GREYS i have no idea what the transgenic donor species would be.

are there any -inos in any of the Conure species in captivity?!? if anyone has them it would likely be Vorens but i don't know of any off the top of my head...

I think it's best to let the mutations come about naturally rather than trying to create one with science or hybridization.

There are already some african grey mutations... there are some "red suffusion" or "red factor" in congos and timnehs (primarily in congos), as well as "albino", which I think a better term would be "lutino mutation" (so to speak) as well as a "blue mutation".

Red Factor Congos






Here's the "albino" grey... IMO a true albino would be pure white... considering that the color grey can be that of "blue" (as it is in budgies, grey and black budgies being from the blue mutations), thus since we lack "blue", and this african grey has red eyes, the better name would probably be lutino... since greys don't really have yellow, in place of yellow coloring we have the red.



Next we have a white tailed african grey. Considering that it's the opposite of the mutation above (so to speak), instead of a lutino, we have what may be considered a "blue" mutation as the grey lacks the red coloring... similar comparison would be a blue budgie or a whiteface cockatiel




Actually, I only know of one, maybe two (depending on if it's same bird or not in two pictures) ino conures... and surprisingly Voren has nothing to do with them! At least to my knowledge!

It is a lutino Nanday....



There's a few more mutations as well as hybrids at this link (if you have a Myspace profile, just check out the pictures)
http://www.myspace.com/parrotoddities

And I do have a list somewhere of some mutations...

At the Brainerd Bird Sale this past Sunday, a breeder from Minneapolis, MN had a red suffusion Grey. It had a very light amount of red and they told me it would more than likely molt out after the first molt. BTW it was a Timneh.

i don't know of anyone in the states actively producing body color Grey mutations. tail (separate color locus), a few random feathers, and a single albino a guy decided not to breed because it was his late father's "baby"....what does that count?...

i've seen damaged-follicles greys (and other species) sold as red-factors (or mutations) time and time again luckily most of those breeders feel guilty enough to indirectly hint its not a mutations and perhaps not even a modification by warning at offering that it might go away with the next molt and so on, but others don't.

that lutino is awesome! a yellow tazmanian devil bird!

so the old grey isn't know to have ever hybridized with any other genus?

Brimonster, I wonder if the "red suffusion" in young african greys is anything like the black feathers found in young cockatoos, macaws, etc that have not been properly handraised, thus lacking in nutrients, or may have had a growth stunt? Thus, this is why the feathers will molt out back to normal?

Going off of that same idea, normal greys as they get older may also attain red feathers. Could it be from plucking? Lack of nutrients or otherwise? Hard to say.

In short I do know that there are "red suffusion" and "red factor" grey breeders here in the states.... probably more "red suffusion", and many chicks are actually keeping their red which would indicate a mutation.

And as far as hybridization goes, the only accounts I know of are between the congo and the timneh, although I do not have any pictures of one.

I hope that is not the case with the breeder I talked to. She seems to be a very knowledgable and an all around good breeder. They didn't actually say it was a mutation, suffusion or any other thing. It only had a freckling of red feathers around the rump and near the vent and legs.