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Hi All,

The Vet called me today. The Toxology report came back ok. However Puddles has Low Protien- Should be between 3-5, He is a 2, with his Albeum (Spelling, not sure if that is even the word the Vet used) at a 1.

Also His Calcium Level is Low-

He said it could be because of the Toxins, but he wants him on Tofu and Tums for the next 2 weeks and to retest in 2 weeks.

So I went and bought some Tums, Fruit Flavor _I think I may get cuddle bone instead. Pud is not interested in the Tums- Unless I grind it up and mix it in her food.

Tofu- Any suggestions how to serve that up? I tried some when I got home tonight with Pud, didn't go over well at all. It was straight from the package.

Thanks for all your Kind post, I really appreciate it!

Take care

Tawny

Not sure what to tell you about the tofu other than Eww! I'd try looking up some "recipes" on-line. If you have to grind up the Tums I would, but the cuttle bone would work too. I'm glad to see that Puddles is otherwise fine.

I'm hoping that focusing on Puddles is helping you during this painful time. BTW, I had to post under Phoenix's profile as I couldn't remember my user name. I finally found it. Many hugs dear Tawny!

Unfortunately protein is more complex than a single thing, there are 20 amino acids that make it up, and what becomes deficient is certain ones of these amino acids. Animals can make ten or so of them from other dietary items, but have to eat another ten or so.

There frequently developes serious problems with birds being deficient in TWO of the amino acids, methionine and lysine from eating only vegetable protein Lysine deficiency is very common, and methionine deficiency can lead to very serious complications very quickly, especially liver disease.

Methionine is involved in making choline, and is involved in several important biochemical reactions in addition to being used for proteins. Lack of it, lack of B12, and lack of folic acid can lead to rapid accumulation of fat in the liver. Geese and ducks are deliberately fed diets to cause this to occur for the production of foie gras. (A food whose production I consider causes severe cruelty to animals.)

In spite of what your vet said, I have serious doubts about feeding much tofu long term, because soy beans contain a toxic terpene and is very deficient in methionine and not very rich in lysine either.

Animal protein has about 7% each of lysine and methionine, but plant protein is usually less than 2% in these. There have been cases of tryptophan deficiency. However, animal protein typically has about 1% tryptophan, so animals do not need much to avoid deficiency.

Soybeans, like other beans, is seriously deficient in methionine. Maize is very seriously deficient in lysine.

Again, the problem with methionine and lysine derives from the fact that plant protein has much less of these amino acids than animal tissue, so animals have to eat a lot of vegetable protein to get enough. But eating too much protein can contribute to gout.

It is interesting that the protein in both the egg white and yolk have very similar composition (but dramatically different compositions for other nutrients.) As you might guess, the amino acid analysis of both is near perfect for animals, since it serves to nourish the developing embryo.

Milk products have similar amino acid distributions for similar reasons. Milk products, however, containing lactose or galactose are not good except in low quantities.

Will puddles eat hard boiled eggs? I never fail to feed all of the members of my flock a small slice of egg each day, trying to get them some hard boiled yolk and hard boiled white in the slice. I try to get about 1/20th of an egg or so per large bird per day. I also put the shell fragments in their food as well.

Although parrots are primarily vegetarians in the wild most, if not all, of them eat some animal protein. A few are down right preditors. I saw a video once of a wild cockatoo cleverly breaking snail shells by "bombing" them with rocks to get at the flesh inside.

PuddlesMom wrote:Hi All,

The Vet called me today. The Toxology report came back ok. However Puddles has Low Protien- Should be between 3-5, He is a 2, with his Albeum (Spelling, not sure if that is even the word the Vet used) at a 1.

Also His Calcium Level is Low-

He said it could be because of the Toxins, but he wants him on Tofu and Tums for the next 2 weeks and to retest in 2 weeks.

So I went and bought some Tums, Fruit Flavor _I think I may get cuddle bone instead. Pud is not interested in the Tums- Unless I grind it up and mix it in her food.

Tofu- Any suggestions how to serve that up? I tried some when I got home tonight with Pud, didn't go over well at all. It was straight from the package.

Thanks for all your Kind post, I really appreciate it!

Take care

Tawny

Our 3 birds, a U2, a Goffin and a Grey all eat eggs with us in the morning sand our vet says it is a fgreat way to get them enough protein. they love the fried potatos too!

I agree. I'm a vet tech at an exotics clinic and our vet would never recommend tofu to boost protein levels. Eggs is definitely the way to go for that. You can also try feeding some chicken if Puddles will eat it. If not, you can try feeding baby food chicken.

For calcium, you can try crushing up the eggshells (scrubbed of course) and mixing them right in with the eggs as you scramble them.

All my girls love eggs with eggshells, and protein is especially important for developing feathers. I feed eggs about once a week to my girls.

Excellent suggestions from everybody.

I also feed hard boiled eggs with cleaned shell. If Pud will eat oatmeal, that is a good way to get down things like Tums or crumbled up HB egg and shell. A little well-cooked chicken might also help, especially if disguised in oatmeal or yams. I am a real believer in vit A from yams and sweet potatos because birds can easily be deficient in it, and vit A is vital for good health and featheration.

I also would not suggest tofu for the reasons Robert discussed. If you are going to feed beans, 15 bean soup mix is better when properly cooked.

Peanut butter is good protein as are dry roasted unsalted peanuts. I do not suggest feeding any kind of peanuts in the shell.

Feed her some good vittles like these, and she will do well.

Carolyn et al.

My advise is NOT to follow the advice of this vet too closely.

I suspect he would flunk my biochemistry course!!! The reality is that there is not such a thing as a general protein deficiency, because there are ten so called essential amino acids that are required to make protein, and all but three are so widespread that almost all practical diets have adequate amounts. (The other ten can be synthesised by animals.) The problem stems from the fact that plant protein is virtually always low in these three. As I mentioned earlier, even though plant protein is low in tryptophan, animals do not need much of it. Methionine is particularly critical because it is used for other purposes by animals than simply being a constituent of protein.

It is necessary for an animal to consume much larger quantities of plant protein than animal protein to get enough methionine and lysine.

Diets high in any beans alone can be dangerous for creatures not adapted for such diets because of their low methionine content. (Including humans!)

No organisms make protein from preformed protein--they completely degrade it to individual amino acids first, that is why it is so important to have a diet that contains them all in adequate amount.

The term protein deficiency should be exponged from the language really!

Hi Tawny...
Just a couple of questions...is your vet an avian vet...doesn't have to be board certified...but one that treats and studies mainly parrots?
I never say don't do what the vet says...but I would certainly question the feeding of tofu for the protein source...When Poirot was sick last year...the first thing that was suggested, by my vet, was to feed hard boiled eggs..and to give a little of the shell too...I always bake the shell for a few minutes....cleans it and gets it nice and crunchy....

Don't forget..you are allowed to ask questions...

Hi,

This thread seems to be getting a bit confusing....so I hope I don't end up adding to that. Low albumin could be an indication of malnutrition in the diet....so you want to raise protein levels and then retest. You may want to try scrambled eggs...about 1/2 teasp. 2-3 times a week. I would stay away from oils when doing this and the reason I would try scrambled egg is to assure that that yellow and white are eaten. One way is to have a small amount of boiling water and drop a beaten egg into it. It'll be cooked in a matter of seconds. Remove onto papers towels with a slotted spoon and pat dry. Another way might be to scramble very fine and mix well into mash or other foods. You may also consider warming up some whole grains with jar baby food and adding some beaten egg when boiling to cook.

Albumin is a major blood protein that serves as a carrier protein for many nutrients. Its manufactured in the liver from amino acids (protein) that are eaten. If the problem isn't malnutrition then there may be a liver or kidney ailment but NO REASON to consider that right now. I'm not sure about the tofu but I do think your vet working to rule out malnutrition first isn't a bad idea.

To find general information you may want to ask Google questions such as - what is albumin.

Low Ca can be supplied by Ca supplementation but also through diet. Foods that provide Ca are dark leafy greens...kale is excellent, dandelion greens, collard greens, broccoli (lightly steam it and you'll increase the Ca), turnip greens, almonds, brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, lowfat organic yogurt. A problem may result if you don't provide enough magnesium(almonds, brazil nuts, millet, tofu, brown rice, dandelion greens, collards)...but if a diet is EATEN ( I stress that since we may offer but birds may not eat) that offers a variety of healthy foods the body often takes care of the balancing part...taking what it needs and eliminating what it doesn't...but it has to be supplied. Another nutrient required for Ca absorption is vit. D...vit. D3 that is provided by sunlight. UV lights that used indoors are questionable when it comes to providing the needed UV rays. D is also found in deep water fish oils such as salmon and mackeral.....you only give a tiny amount...and supplemented pellets such as Harrisons. You may also want to consider some probiotics for better nutrient absorption in the gut. Chances are that is ok but its something you might want to think about trying is Ca levels don't come up. Vit. K usually isn't a problem ...its easily supplied in the diet but I have a chronic hypocalcemic U2 that has been a mystery for over a year and recently improved with the addition of probiotics (yup...I experimented again, lol)...if I'm right and if her Ca level is actually up when we recheck it then I suspect her gut wasn't properly absorbing the vit. K.

hugs,

Shauna