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callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:39 pm

Monica, thank you so much for your post!

Mateo is completely off all Harrison's food now and has been for several months. He now eats Harrison's, Lafeber's Nutriberries and AviCakes, millet sprigs on rare occasions and that's about it. I've never had much luck getting him to eat any health people foods. He doesn't even seem interested in eggs anymore and he used to go nuts over those. I can almost bet he wouldn't eat anything healthy if I made the most yummy dish out there. I'll check into that food thread though, thanks.

His weight has been good, and now I'm wondering it the first vet I took him too got an incorrect weight (98g). He's between 83g and 88g, depending on the time of day. His personality is the same and all else is well. He seems and acts happy, the balding is his only issue.

Re: a food allergy. If he was indeed allergic to something, it would have been something in the Kaytee pellets I fed him. He developed this while on Kaytee pellets and little else. So, wouldn't that mean the allergy would have to have been something in those pellets? I occasionally mixed in some other Kaytee blended stuff and some parakeet seed, but his diet then was 80% Kaytee rainbow pellets and was that way for over four years.

Also, and it didn't occur to me until later, Mateo developed this problem AFTER I did some bird sitting this summer. I can't remember if I mentioned that in this thread or not. Would it be possible that he contracted something via air from one of these birds? I have the same woman who wants me to bird sit over x-mas. Would this be a bad idea?

MFids · by **MFids** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:08 pm

If it's an allergy to what he's been eating (i.e. pellets), then whatever he is allergic to could also be in the new pellets.... the best way to rule this out is to either remove pellets from the diet, or try the Roudybush Rice diet (which you have to order through an avian vet - but you may want to double check with the site)
http://www.roudybush.com/go/ricediet
http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuse ... group_id=2 (scroll down the page - or press "Ctrl + F" and type in "Rice")

Yes, he could have picked something up from the boarders (you did mention), but he could have also become stressed because of the boarders, thus resulting in a behavioral problem rather than a medical.

As for boarding the woman's birds, you may want to do that in her house until you get Mateo's issues solved?

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:32 pm

I have thought about the Roudybush Rice. However, I just ordered 5 lbs. of Harrison's, and he's only been on Harrison's for awhile now, so I want to give that a chance before switching him again.

Here are the ingredients in the Kaytee food I was feeding him:

Ground Corn, Ground Wheat, Ground Oat Groats, Wheat Middlings, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Whole Egg, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Meal, Corn Oil, Corn Sugar, Wheat Germ Meal, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Choline Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Dried Yeast, DL-Methionine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Propionic Acid (a preservative), Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), Beta-Carotene, Canthaxanthin, Cobalt Carbonate, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus coagulans Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Sodium Selenite, Artificial Colors, Natural Flavors.

And here are the ingredients in the Harrison's I feed him:

*Ground Hulled White Millet (Proso), *Ground Shelled Sunflower Seeds, *Ground Hulless Barley, *Ground Yellow Corn, *Ground Soybeans, *Ground Shelled Peanuts, *Ground Rice, *Ground Green Peas, *Ground Lentils, *Ground Toasted Oat Groats, Chia Seed, *Ground Alfalfa, Calcium Carbonate, Montmorillonite Clay, Spirulina, Ground Dried Sea Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Sea Salt, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, d-Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.

Looks like common ingredients are corn, oat groats, soybeans and salt.

But here's my question. He'd been eating Kaytee stuff for four years. Can they just develop an allergy to something after eating it for four years?

MFids · by **MFids** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:54 pm

To answer that question - re allergies. Yes. The research I've done on human allergies says that you could suddenly become allergic to something you've never been allergic to before.

Corn, peanuts, wheat products, and soy are all products that birds can have negative reactions to. Most pellets contain at least 2 of those ingredients... It's up to you if you want to switch or not, and when you want to switch.

Roudybush Rice Diet

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 10.0% min
Crude Fat 3.5% min
Crude Fiber 2.0% max
Moisture 10.0% max

Ingredients: Rice, Rice Bran, Rice Protein Concentrate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Choline Chloride, L-Lysine, Potassium Chloride, Biotin Premix, Vitamin B12 Premix, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Copper Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Riboflavin.

Feeding Recommendations: Rice Diet should be available to your bird free choice with fresh water. Do not give vitamin or mineral supplements.

How to use Roudybush Rice Diet
If your bird is already eating a pelletized or extruded diet, switching it to Roudybush Rice Diet should be simple. Just mix the Rice Diet in with the old diet and gradually decrease the old diet. When the diet is predominantly Rice Diet, watch your bird's droppings or weigh your bird to make sure it is eating the Rice Diet well. If your bird is not eating it well, the fecal portion of the dropping will turn very dark green or black and be smaller than normal. Feces of birds eating the Rice Diet are pale green. Don't start counting the time on the Rice Diet until your bird is eating nothing but Rice Diet.

If your bird is not eating a pelletized or extruded diet, the most efficient method for switching your bird is a controlled sudden introduction. This should only be done with otherwise healthy birds at normal body weights. Replace the food in the cage with Rice Diet and change your bird's cage papers (use paper, not corn cob or walnut shell or other litters). Watch your bird's droppings for two full days in small species (under 200 grams) and three full days in larger species (over 200 grams). If your bird's fecal portion stays very dark green or black and small until the end of that time period, it means your bird is not eating. Give your bird his old food back and try the switch again in a week. If the fecal portion starts becoming larger and lighter green by the end of the time period, it means the bird has accepted the new diet. Most birds will make the switch the first time but some may take two or three attempts. Many birds will scoop an unfamiliar food out of their feeder or pick it up and crush it in their beaks before dropping it, so do not try to determine whether your bird is eating the diet by seeing the bird chewing it or by its disappearance from the feeder. Watch the droppings.

Once your bird is eating the Rice Diet, do not give it any other food items for up to 10 weeks. Do not give any treats unless it is unseasoned rice or a rice product with nothing but rice on the ingredient list. Even one bite of a food your bird is allergic to can cause a reaction. Keep a diary of your bird's preening and feather picking or mutilation behavior. If you see a decrease in itchy behavior or an improvement in feathering, continue feeding your bird the Rice Diet. This diet is formulated to be a normal maintenance diet for the life of your bird. After you've been able to fully evaluate the results of the diet, if you want to give your bird treats you can add one food item back at a time. For example, if your bird likes corn, you can give it corn (avoid complex processed corn products which may have other ingredients besides corn in them) and then watch your bird to see if the itchy behavior recurs. If it does, you know your bird reacts to corn. If your bird continues to do well, you know your bird tolerates corn and can have that item as a treat. If your bird reacts to the addition of a new food item, wait until the itchiness subsides before trying another new food item. If your allergic bird is housed with another normal bird, they can both eat the rice diet because it is a normal maintenance diet for any bird that is not laying more than 8 eggs each year or feeding chicks.

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:30 pm

I've looked into the Roudybush Rice Diet. It's on my list of things to try. For right now, I'm taking a break. Mateo seems happy and he's eating the Harrisons, so I'm happy about that. I also have a powder I'm supposed to pick up from the vet's, but they were closed today. I have no idea what the powder is and the receptionist seemed cluesless, so I need to get more information.

bostonbudgie · by **bostonbudgie** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:28 pm

It is really hard to pin point food allergies or if that is the cause of the picking or if certain food aggravate the problem. this is something I am STILL trying to figure out.
I do think corn aggravates Button's condition.(but I do not think it is the cause) When she eats corn on the cob (which she loves) She is terrible.
I found using the roudy bush rice pellets she doesn't tear as much even though the vet wanted her a harrison's diet (which has corn) I am still experiementing and observing....sigh.....
My question is: Is Mateo picking and tearing? That is more important than seeing feather growtth because if she/he is consistently tearing out feather follicles they will never grow back.

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:41 pm

bostonbudgie wrote:It is really hard to pin point food allergies or if that is the cause of the picking or if certain food aggravate the problem. this is something I am STILL trying to figure out.
I do think corn aggravates Button's condition.(but I do not think it is the cause) When she eats corn on the cob (which she loves) She is terrible.
I found using the roudy bush rice pellets she doesn't tear as much even though the vet wanted her a harrison's diet (which has corn) I am still experiementing and observing....sigh.....
My question is: Is Mateo picking and tearing? That is more important than seeing feather growtth because if she/he is consistently tearing out feather follicles they will never grow back.

How I wold describe it is this: He's preening himself around and under his wings. Preening normally, and then he seems to find one feather that bugs him, so he starts preening that one feather over and over and over, and harder and harder, until it comes out. Then he goes back to normal preening. I haven't seen him do it in awhile though.

bostonbudgie · by **bostonbudgie** on Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:52 am

I've trying to get Button to lift her wings to take a pic. She has done it but the picture comes out so blurry. This is the latest pic of her (I took last night). You can see on her side under her wing a bald spot.

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 am

Awww, lookit little Buttons!

I do see the spot you're talking about. Mateo's area isn't visible unless his wings are up for some reason.

I hope we get this figured out. How long has buttons had this for?

bostonbudgie · by **bostonbudgie** on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:38 pm

Six years...
and she seen six different vets... sigh...

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:16 pm

bostonbudgie wrote:Six years...
and she seen six different vets... sigh...

Wow, and nothing, right? I would guess after six years and six vets, I might just let it go. I mean, what else can you do?

I still have a powder to pick up from the vet's, but I can't get a hold of them. Hopefully tomorrow. I'll let you know what it is and if it works!

MFids · by **MFids** on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:50 am

I half wonder if RPO (Red Palm Oil) would be of any help.... or Cod Liver Oil.... full spectrum avian bulbs... organic pellets (TOP's, Foundation Formula, Roudybush, Harrisons)... aloe vera - orally or topically... or any of those other random supplements or 'miracle cures' out there....

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:31 am

MFids wrote:I half wonder if RPO (Red Palm Oil) would be of any help.... or Cod Liver Oil.... full spectrum avian bulbs... organic pellets (TOP's, Foundation Formula, Roudybush, Harrisons)... aloe vera - orally or topically... or any of those other random supplements or 'miracle cures' out there....

I've tried the red palm oil. No difference. Tried some aloe stuff under his pits (AviX Soother Plus cream) - made it worse. I have TOP pellets and he won't touch them. I also have tried Roudybush and he won't touch them. He gets showers, good food, lots of attention, clean water and has a big cage. I just wish I knew if this was behavioral or a physical ailment.

bostonbudgie · by **bostonbudgie** on Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:42 am

Beleive it or not I've tried all of those things you've mentioned (UV lighting, aloe, organics, palm oil etc...) I even spent close to $2000.00 on visits and remedies from an homeopathic vet.
For Button, after all the vet visits one vet suggested it is probably fungal.I think it is fungal too but she can not tolerate the meds.

so we just keep her immune system/liver healthy

callisto9 · by **callisto9** on Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:22 am

bostonbudgie wrote:Beleive it or not I've tried all of those things you've mentioned (UV lighting, aloe, organics, palm oil etc...) I even spent close to $2000.00 on visits and remedies from an homeopathic vet.
For Button, after all the vet visits one vet suggested it is probably fungal.I think it is fungal too but she can not tolerate the meds. so we just keep her immune system/liver healthy

Sounds like they have the same problem - Buttons and Mateo. I wonder how it started though. Where did it come from?

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