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Okay, this is a pet peeve of mine and it is now driving me nuts. Many people brag about feeding all organic foods to their families and birds. Newsflash people, all food is organic. The definition of organic is :

In physics, a material that contains carbon and hydrogen and usually other elements such as nitrogen, sulfur and oxygen. Organic compounds can be found in nature or they can be synthesized in the laboratory. An organic substance is not the same as a "natural" substance. A natural material means that it is essentially the same as it was found in nature, but "organic" means that it is carbon based.

A printed circuit board is an example of an organic substrate because the laminate material is made of glass fibers in an epoxy, and epoxies are carbon based (see FR4). See organic chemistry. http://www.answers.com/topic/organic-compound

adj.
1. Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms: organic matter.
2. Of, relating to, or affecting a bodily organ: an organic disease.
3.
a. Of, marked by, or involving the use of fertilizers or pesticides that are strictly of animal or vegetable origin: organic vegetables; an organic farm.
b. Raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals: organic chicken; organic cattle farming.
c. Serving organic food: an organic restaurant.
d. Simple, healthful, and close to nature: an organic lifestyle.
4.
a. Having properties associated with living organisms.
b. Resembling a living organism in organization or development; interconnected: society as an organic whole.
5. Constituting an integral part of a whole; fundamental.
6. Law Denoting or relating to the fundamental or constitutional laws and precepts of a government or an organization.
7. Chemistry Of or designating carbon compounds.
n.
1. A substance, especially a fertilizer or pesticide, of animal or vegetable origin.
2. Chemistry An organic compound.

I know that many of you are accually meaning that you feed your family and birds a Pesticide Free food. Unfortunately, unless you grow everything in a secluded enviornment like a hot house, there will be pesticides that float in from other farmers spraying their fields. While this is a nobel cause, organic farming is in part a fraud. Unless you visit the fields yourself and test everything, you will find people who cheat. In order to make a profit, they can't have inscets eating all of their foods. The perfect "organic" vegitables that you find in the store are not something that I trust.

I'm not saying that you should feed foods that are coated with pesticides, but at the same time, let's be a little realistic about this. I don't even say that the fruits at my parent's house are organic when I know they haven't sprayed anything on the trees since 1986 when we moved in. Where there are farmers nearby, there will always be some pesticide contamintation.

Here is the scary part, to be labled organic, an item need only to be 70% that way.

100% Organic- means that every ingredient in the product was raised and harvested in an organic environment as approved and certified by the USDA.
Organic- means that 70 to 95 percent of all the ingredients have been raised in a USDA approved manner

Organic meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy products come from animals that are given no antibiotics or growth hormones during their lives. Organic food is produced without using harmful, conventional pesticides; fertilizers containing synthetic ingredients or sewage sludge; bioengineering; or ionizing radiation. Before a product can be labeled organic, a Government-approved certifier inspects the farm where the food is grown to ensure that the farmer is following all the rules necessary to meet USDA organic standards. Companies that handle or process organic food before it gets to the local supermarket or restaurant must also be certified by the government.

Unless you shop at a 100% organic supermarket, can you be sure that your store follows these guidelines? What about cross contamination when trimming foods or handling them? Remember, grocery workers don't earn a ton of money, they rush to get their job done because there is always someone that can do it for less money. There is no protection against being fired if the store says they aren't doing their job. Speed in their job is the key when working with produce.

Another thing to keep in mind. The recent food scares with produce involved E-Coli contamintation. In many cases, this came from wild pigs that were invading the fields, or from waste water runoff from a cattle ranch or dairy, while we can control the waste water contamination as long as no birds or other wild animals get to it, we cannot control the animals themselves. Unfortunately, this also includes humans. While everyone that handles your food is supposed to wash their hands after using the restroom, E-Coli and Heppititis A infections still occur from restraunts and some stores.

Johns Hopkins Health Alert
Going Organic -- What Does the USDA Certified Organic Seal Really Guarantee?http://www.johnshopkinshealthalerts.com/alerts/nutrition_weight_control/JohnsHopkinsNutritionWeightControlHealthAlert_446-1.html

While not a completely reliable source, this article about organic foods is interesting: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/organic.html


Quotes from: http://www.slashfood.com/2006/04/07/definition-of-organic-according-to-the-usda Bold and underline is mine.

While I do agree that we need to limit the number of chemicals that we ingest, we need to balance this with things that are being done to keep us healthy. There are simple things you can do yourself like being more aware, but don't let yourself be led down the garden path.

Feel free to debate or refute my claims and beliefs.

christie wrote:...I know that many of you are accually meaning that you feed your family and birds a Pesticide Free food. Unfortunately, unless you grow everything in a secluded enviornment like a hot house, there will be pesticides that float in from other farmers spraying their fields. While this is a nobel cause, organic farming is in part a fraud... I'm not saying that you should feed foods that are coated with pesticides, but at the same time, let's be a little realistic about this.. While everyone that handles your food is supposed to wash their hands after using the restroom, E-Coli and Heppititis A infections still occur from restraunts and some stores... While I do agree that we need to limit the number of chemicals that we ingest, we need to balance this with things that are being done to keep us healthy. There are simple things you can do yourself like being more aware, but don't let yourself be led down the garden path. Feel free to debate or refute my claims and beliefs.

What's to debate -- that all food is "organic," that perfection evades us, that there's more to living healthy than just eating food containing fewer pesticides? The organic vs conventional food arguments have been made often and vehemently for decades. I'm too busy weeding my veggie beds to get nutty about it.

Good luck

PS One of the best ways to stay healthy is to eat like a (healthy) bird and stay slim. Staves off a multitude of diseases. Do you know what your BMI is?

If I can possibly buy "locally grown" I do it. To me, personally, buying locally is the best way. They generally use less pesticides (at least the places I buy local veggies) and are more carefull with irrigation/watering (less contaimination). I do not like to buy veggies/fruit that are imported. God know what kind of pesticides they use or if the workers are crapping right on the produce.I would love to grow my own veggies. The only thing I have had success is with basil (in July). My soil is sandy and acidic.

You might be surprised how much food you can get from one small raised bed. Avoid space eaters like squash, zucchini, and melons. Instead grow dandelions, Swiss chard, Romaine, broccoli, collards, and a couple tomato and pepper plants. When I lived in a condo, I grew great peppers in pots on my patio. It's easy, fun, and nutritious

Fertilizers and Pesticides are two separate things all together. If you lived on a farm for any period you would know what farmers do to their soil prior to planting (ala Timothy McVeigh.) It is these non-organic fertilizers that separate organic and non-organic produce grown. And then on the later stages of growth some farmers do apply a pesticide to the plant, organic farmers apply a pesticide but it is a naturally occurring pesticide which allows them to be certified by the USDA as an "Organic Farmer."

Your defination clearly states what is an organic fertilizer, and how is is composed (by animal or vegetable matter.) And lately the use of bio-strains and artifically altered produce leaves us all to re-think what is on our kitchen table, but these "altered" states of produce are not in the Organic Farmers field.

The problem with our birds and fertilizers is that these chemicals get into the very fruit or vegetable grown, visa vie behind the peel. When using non-organic fruits and vegetables be certain which ones you can safely use and which ones you should avoid. But with a pesticide you should always wash them completely with a light vinegar solution and water. Still this is no guarantee that you will be removing all the pesticides (artificial ones) that a non-organic farmer applies to the produce.

These standards are applied and meant for humans. Our birds systems are but a small percentage in comparison to a human. When applying these standards you are multiplying the effects of these substances by 100 times and is lethal to them.

Very good quotes on your article and use of citations are terrific! However in this case quotes rendered to an avian sourse would be more appropriate. When in doubt check with the American Avian Vet Association for their statement on this, or with your trusted local vet.

Dutch

P.S.- Nice topic choice here, I usually don't comment in this section but couldn't help myself

I actually dug and turned over the soil in a sunny spot in my yard getting it ready for next year.My cousin has a compost bin filled with stuff that I could use for fertilizer. I would love to grow spinach and collards!!!!

Honestly, in all of my searching, including on the USDA website, I never came across anything in regards to birds. I know that growing your own is best, which is what I try to do here, but articles in regards to organic/pesticide free was something I did not see.

This is an interesting subject. I remember hearing several years ago of banned fertilizer being shipped to South America from the US and then the produce being sent to the US. Last year there was an uproar in Florida when two HS students did a project testing the quality of air around some (elementary?) schools that had been built next to potato farms. Guess why.....

Just today, the Tru Green truck pulled up to the neighbor's. They no longer wet spray. They have a giant seed spreader and run with it. Set-up, break-down and spread...... driving out in 4 mins. Lucky for me there is a driveway between their lawn that gets done and my yard, he never thinks to do the strip of their lawn on my side of the driveway.

This is an interesting article--- http://www.doityourself.com/stry/fertilizeepsomsalts . I've used this for years. Works well in New England with our clay soil. I use the spray method. Easy for either containers or raised beds since I mulch both.... no weeds. Roses look great. If I spray the Peace Roses when I spray the veggies the roses bloom all summer.

PBS station in Boston, WGBH, used to have a gardener come on during 'Send Money' week. He had hints for never buying pesticides and fertilizers. Wish I could remember his name (Was NOT Jim Crockett of the Victory Garden).... sure was ahead of his time. Good way to break down thatch in lawn involved using, mixed with other things, cola as the sugar in it feeds the bacteria. As a pick-me-up for the lawn spread epsom salts in the Fall.

You know the white vinegar we all have? Great for killing bindweed etc.

Anyone else have any ideas to pass along?

Christie, sorry if this is slightly OT.

Rho

No problem. Maybe we can turn the problems that are out there into something useful for everyone doing a potted garden.

Not my favorite author but here is good material:

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww21eii.htm

Anyone else have any ideas to pass along?

Christie, .

Rho[/quote]

As an apartment dweller w/ a landlord who doesn't want any plants on his prescious wooden decks, I am limited to a few herbs on the kitchen window sill. When my dad was alive he went into organic gardening big time. He bought ladybugs by the pint for his roses. Kept them (lady bugs, not the roses) in the fridge. He put a few around his roses at night. The bugs came out of hibernation with the sun, ate all the aphids, then flew away. When the aphids began to reappear, he'd release a few more ladybugs. He also bought preying mantis egg cases & put them out. The first year after he had done this the neighbors found an egg case in their yard, proving they were reproducing locally. My dad also had a compost pile with not only our family's organic stuff, but he got the neighbors to give him their lawn clippings and went to the local lumber yard each week for sawdust. Then, a neighbor boy had a quackless duck as a pet. He rented it out for fifty cents a day to neighbors to come eat bugs in their yards! My sister belongs to a certified organic farm co-op & gets a box of fruit & veggies once a week. She can't stipulate what she wants--just gets whatever is in season. Those are some great veggies! Also, at least around here, there are weekly ogranic-certified farmers markets. Different cities/towns have them on different days of the week so lucky me has a choice of 5 different days to pick up healthy food. Probably off topic, but I am committed to organic food for my birds & for moral considerations. I'm old engough that I don't think eating grocery store food is going to affect my long term health. But I lilve near the Salinas valley, the "salad bowl" capitol of the country. I see the farm workers in the fields, swathed in long shirts, long pants, scarves around their faces, hats, so only their eyes show. They are paid next to nothing, have no health coverage, terrible working conditions, and frequent health problems from all the "stuff" used to increase productivity. Not buying that kind of produce doesn't really help them, but at least I feel like I'm not contributing to the situation. So I willingly pay a little more to buy organic, from local growers when ever possible, but organic anyway. That means I can only get what is in season, but I just feel a little better that way. And I feel like my birdies are better off, too.

Off my soap box now.

Thanks Bubblelady. Some great thoughts.... love the 'quackless' duck!! Wish I had had bugs here this summer.... a total of 3 different butterflies, 1 bee. No flies or mosquitoes ( why am I complaining?) Used Q-Tips to pollinate. I learned that tomatoes like to be hit... baseball bat against the pot...... At least I didn't look as weird as I did with the Q-Tips.

Happy to hear that you are still 'walking the walk'. Wonderful lessons from your dad.... ahead of his time.

Dutch, thanks for the url.... I think that is the article I read about the fertilizer--- didn't remember it was DDT. Do you have more?

Anyone use a greenhouse for extending the season?


Rho