Grrr

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Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:42 pm

So my Baby took her last dose of med on Friday night (10 days twice a day) and yesterday morning her poopy started smelling again :(.. It's not as strong as it was before but still it started smelling not even 72 full hours after she stopped taking the med.

I called her Dr and the receptionist talked to her and called me back saying that they could refill her med for me and if I was really concerned about her poopy I could take in a sample of fresh poopy tomorrow and they would check it out. :?

What the heck am I doing wrong? I swear I really try to do everything right for her. Shes not a dirty baby and we aren't dirty. I just don't know why this is happeneing. The good thing is she isn't "acting" like she don't feel good shes still hyper, happy, always playing, eating really good and she is molting so she preens like crazy. I wonder if it's just part of her hormonal thing, but shes not crying all the time anymore or sleeping all the time like she was when they said she was hormonal.

I just feel like such a bad Mommy to her cuz shes always going thru something. I wish I could have someone come and watch us for a week or two and see if they see me doing anything wrong :|. Sounds stupid but I really think that sometimes. I feed her the best I know, the Dr and Michelle say shes on a really good diet, I keep her clean, shes active, she gets a good amount of sleep from 8:00 pm till 9:00 am, she seems happy but something is going wrong that she isn't as healthy as she deserves to be.

I know once she goes back on that med it's gonna be miserable for her twice a day. :x and like BostonBudgie said those 10 days last foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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Re: Grrr

Postby Bluesbird Exotics on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:14 pm

Rosies Mommy wrote:... Shes not a dirty baby and we aren't dirty... I wish I could have someone come and watch us for a week or two and see if they see me doing anything wrong :|. Sounds stupid but I really think that sometimes. I feed her the best I know, the Dr and Michelle say shes on a really good diet...


I've never heard of yeast having ANYTHING to do with sanitation. What has you thinking the cause is a cleaniness issue?

Has the vet recommended you continue feeding her surgary food -- corn and Nutriberries? If so, you might cut them and other sugars out of her diet for the next 2-3 weeks and see if that's her cure.
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Re: Grrr

Postby christie on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:21 pm

Not only the sugars should be cut, but the simple starches too. White bread, white rice etc. Starch and sugar feed yeast like mad.

Here is part of a site about yeast in birds:
How is candidiasis diagnosed?

Since Candida is normally present in the digestive tract, simply finding the yeast there does not make the diagnosis of candidiasis. Along with a culture of the affected area and the finding of a large number of the organisms, your veterinarian will also take into account the signs, results of a physical examination, history and husbandry of the bird, and presence of other diseases.

To obtain samples for culture and microscopic examination, the mouth or other accessible area may be swabbed, or, an endoscope may be used to obtain samples from further down in the digestive tract.

How is candidiasis treated?

Treatment will include the administration of antifungal medications as well as eliminating any risk factors, such as poor diet, poor sanitation, or the presence of other diseases. Antifungal medications commonly include nystatin, flucytosine, ketoconazole, fluconazole, and itraconazole. For treatment of oral or skin infections, ointment containing amphotericin B may be applied.

How is candidiasis prevented?

Candidiasis occurs when some other factor negatively influences the health of the bird. By providing a clean environment and proper nutrition, reducing or eliminating any causes of stress, and preventing contact with any potentially sick bird, the risk of candidiasis can be greatly decreased.

For birds on prolonged antibiotics, your veterinarian may advise mixing chlorhexidine into the drinking water. If candidiasis occurs in a bird nursery, nystatin may be added to the hand-rearing formulas. Any nursery items should be cleaned and disinfected after use on each bird (do not use any utensil on two birds without disinfecting in-between). Any left-over formula that could have been contaminated with secretions from baby birds should be discarded.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... cleid=3090

And another, read the causes section:

THE YEAST BEAST
by Pam Thompson (March 1999)
All Rights Reserved

Candida albicans, a breeder's nightmare! What is it, what causes it, how to prevent it, and how to treat it? If you're a breeder who continuously deals with recurring yeast infections, and have exhausted all your resources for a cure to no avail, then this is the article for you.

I'm no nutritionist or avian vet; my only creditability is that I'm a breeder who had a reoccurring nightmare. Researching and understanding how the yeast organism works was the key to curing my nightmare.

WHAT IS CANDIDA?
Candida albicans is a yeast fungus that is very similar to the yeasts that cause bread to rise and fruit to ferment into wine. No one is sure what purpose it serves, if any. We do know that it helps the body decompose after death, but surely we don't want that to start happening while we're alive. It is a unicellular (single-celled) microorganism, a member of a sub group of the family of plants, known as fungi or mold, and reproduces by budding. It survives in most organic sources or anything alive and it reproduces rapidly.

In a sense, a territorial war is constantly going on within the intestines. Candida albicans resides in harmless quantities in the intestines, in a concentration of one Candida cell to millions of friendly bacteria. Under healthy conditions the friendly bacteria in the intestines keep yeast organisms in check by taking up space and by producing anti-Candida chemicals (these chemicals feed on yeast organisms). However, when the intestines are depleted of friendly bacteria, the yeast organisms begin to take over. This yeast overgrowth produces toxins (poisons) that disable the immune system from working properly.

Young unweaned birds are prime targets for yeast infections since their immune system has not had an opportunity to build up a good source of friendly bacteria to fight off infection. Older birds under stress caused by poor diet, breeding, fighting or overcrowding are also susceptible to infection.

A Candida infection can spread to the mouth, tongue, pharynx, larynx, esophagus, and throughout the intestinal tract. It can cause crop and esophagus lesions, and eye and lung problems. Within the crop, the underlying mucosa is thickened and roughened and therefore the crop cannot function properly. The crop may become distended with a white, cheesy fluid and mucous content, giving a balloon-like appearance, and often has a foul odor. Severe complications include crop stasis, vomiting, and swallowing problems. Rhinitis and beak necrosis may also occur if the yeast infects the otopharynx and spreads to the nares or the upper beak, causing the lower beak to grow abnormally. If untreated, death is likely. If bacterial invasion is also present, other numerous symptoms may occur.

WHAT CAUSES YEAST INFECTIONS?
Keeping Candida albicans in balance is a function of friendly bacteria, not the immune system. While the immune system and friendly bacteria work together, the immune system itself can't control Candida albicans once there is an overgrowth. With a lack of friendly bacteria within the immune system, the yeast begins to proliferate and the immune system will become so weak that viral and bacterial infections begin to wreak havoc. So, what caused the yeast infection is a depressed immune system due to an imbalance of friendly bacteria.

A yeast infection is almost always a secondary infection. The primary infection, more than likely viral or bacterial, is what started the war with the friendly bacteria. Your first step to curing recurring yeast infections is to treat any viral or bacterial infections that may be present.

In some cases the depressed immune system was caused by a combination of sources including the use of synthetic drugs, as well as poor management of environment and diet. Getting to the root cause (determining what caused an imbalance of friendly bacteria) and making the necessary changes will ultimately cure yeast infections and prevent its future recurrence in your aviary.

Synthetic Drugs
The use of broad-spectrum antibiotics is the #1 cause for a depressed immune system. The use of antifungals, antibiotics and steroids are problematic as they kill the friendly bacteria within the intestines, weakening the immune system in the process. Many times synthetic drugs are too readily administered even for minor conditions. This over use is only weakening your gene pool. This surely suggests there must be another option. Natural alternatives to these harsher drugs can often be just as effective, if not more so.

Environmental Causes
Candida albicans grows best in a mildly acidic environment. Unfortunately, a nest box of chicks mimics that type of environment precisely. Poor feeding and incubating habits by the parents often are the cause of chicks infected with yeast. Evaluation of these parents is in order. Some other contributing factors include, but not limited to:

1) Stress related due to breeding, exhibiting, injuries, and overcrowding.
2) Dramatic temperature fluctuations.
3) Damp and dark basement aviaries where mold and fungus grows.
4) High humidity (increases the fermenting process of fresh foods).
5) Spray misting the inside of a nest box increases the growth of fungus.

Dietary Causes
1) Vitamin deficiency (particularly Vitamin A).
2) Cold or unsanitary handfeeding formula. Also, formula that is too thick.
3) Foreign objects within the chicks crop (pine bedding).
4) Leafy greens and other fresh foods that have begun to decay.
5) Contaminated feed and water.
6) Certain foods (i.e., refined carbohydrates & sugars).

Armed with this knowledge, it would be safe to assume the key to eliminating yeast infection is to keep the friendly bacteria within your bird's intestines in balance. This can be achieved by:

1) Evaluating your diet and environment and making the necessary changes.

2) Following up with a quality probiotic after administering synthetic drugs or during times of stress and minor illness.

3) Continue to replenish the friendly bacteria using natural alternatives on a weekly basis.

PREVENTION & PROBIOTICS
When necessary, synthetic drugs can cure a yeast infection. Nystatin is commonly used. Harsher drugs like Intraconzole, Ketaconzole, Difluconzole can also be used when Nystatin has no effect. However, remember these synthetic drugs are the biggest enemies of the friendly bacteria causing a depressed immune system. A follow up with a daily supplement of probiotics (lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidus) is essential, otherwise the Candida albicans will only grow back, and more abundantly.

Prevention
Rather than continue using synthetic drugs and getting caught up in a vicious cycle of reoccurring yeast infections, a better idea is to prevent yeast from showing its ugly face in the first place. Your gene pool will be much healthier in the long run if you can prevent illness rather than continually treat it. The first step is to evaluate what you have control over and make the necessary changes. Here are some suggestions:

- Fortify your bird's diet with a natural source of Vitamin A (fish liver oil, carrots, green and yellow vegetables, eggs, and yellow fruits). Vitamin A helps to build resistance to respiratory infections, shortens the duration of diseases, keeps the outer layers of tissues and organs healthy, promotes growth, strong bones, and healthy tissue, helps protect the mucous membranes of the mouth, nose, throat and lungs, thereby reducing susceptibility to infections. You can also use a Vitamin A & D supplement made specifically for birds.

- A diet high in fresh vegetables, especially leafy greens, which are alkaline and balance the acidosis of Candida albicans. Wash all fresh leafy greens and vegetables with a safe non-toxic veggie wash.

- Store all feed in clean, dry and tightly sealed containers. Purchase your feed from a supplier that has a reputation for selling fresh product.

- Use bottled purified or spring water.

- Remove fresh foods within 1-2 hours. Sooner if the temperature is hot and humid.

- Do not spray mist the inside of the nest box. If you need to moisten the eggs, take them out of the nest box and hold them in a warm damp cloth.

- Keep the temperature even and steady with the proper humidity level.

- Wash all contaminated dishes daily with a good disinfected (bleach and water solution is recommended and inexpensive).

- Place a heat lamp or a heating pad on the outside of the nest box for those pairs who leave their young chicks unattended for too long. This will help to avoid having to pull the chicks at an early age due to chilling; chilling can cause illness.

- Proper lighting promotes a healthy bird and a healthy bird is more equipped to fight off illness.

- Breads have sugar so that's a "no no" especially if you are experiencing reoccurring yeast infections.

Probiotics
The one supplement I highly recommend to all cockatiel breeders is a quality Probiotic. Probiotics are multipurpose natural antibiotics that inhibit the growth of many pathogens, including the common yeast infection, by producing lactic acid in the intestines; thereby improving intestinal health and promoting effective digestion. A combination of Lactobacilli acidophilus and Bifidobacterium bifidus is recommended. These beneficial or "friendly" intestinal bacteria strengthen the immune system and actually use the yeast cells as food. Here are a few products on the market.

ProBac Adult Maximizer (Avian Medicine Chest): A probiotic powder for adult birds. Enhances the action of the digestive system, stimulates appetite and maximizes conversion of food. Hornbecks 888-224-3247 (hornbecks.com).

ProBac Chick (Avian Medicine Chest): An all-natural powder supplement containing live microorganisms, immunoglogulins, vitamins, nucleotides, enzymes and other components designed to help stimulate a chick's immune system. Hornbecks 888-224-3247 (hornbecks.com).

Bene-Bac: A concentrated source of live, naturally occurring bacteria in a convenient easy to administer gel or economical dried powder. Helps maintain a healthy digestive system, especially under times of stress or antibiotic therapy. Hornbecks 888-224-3247 (hornbecks.com).

Prime Total Health: Complete balance of vitamins, digestive enzymes, micro-beneficial bacteria and electrolytes. At your local Pet Smart (petsmart.com).

If you are experiencing recurring yeast infections in your aviary, then I would suggest the use of a quality Probiotic daily and begin cutting back to once or twice a week after you eliminate it's reoccurrence.

Last edited by christie on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:28 pm

Bluesbird Exotics wrote:
I've never heard of yeast having ANYTHING to do with sanitation. What has you thinking the cause is a cleaniness issue?


I honestly don't know what the cause is or what to think. I was just thinking everything in general, cleanliness, diet, excersize, enough sleep etc...

Girls, She don't get white rice she gets bulgar wheat or brown rice, she only gets white bread when we eat out she likes the bun on the burgers other than that she gets wheat bread, since you told me about the treats and corn she has had no treats and only had corn twice.
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Re: Grrr

Postby Bluesbird Exotics on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:42 pm

Actually, spoiled food CAN grow yeast, so I suppose I have heard of yeast being a sanitation issue. How long do you let Rosie have her vegetables before cleaning up her house and anywhere she might go to retrieve what was dropped?

Hasn't she had antibiotics several times? Those can cause yeast infections, especially if you're not giving her probiotics. Apple cidar vinegar in her water can help keep her digestive tract in good balance. Ask you vet about whether you could/should add that while she's on this round of anti-fungals.

Would you like to tell us more about what you feed her so we can give you guidance on that? Or did you already go over that in detail with her vet? I would certainly eliminate all sugar and starches. It's not easy to do, but continuing to medicate her isn't real easy either, I'm guessing :wink:
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Re: Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:07 pm

Wow, all that info wasn't there when I first read this Christi. Thanks.

Bluesbird Exotics Yes Rosie has been on antibiotics alot in her little life. She was on some just in July when she was having all those issues and she had a bacterial infection..

Rosie don't really eat in her house. She eats more out of her house so her food don't even have a chance to drop in her house and rot there. Her diet is pretty simple

In the mornings she gets seeds at noon those go out and we give her warmed softened pellets (roudybush) she eats her biggest meal in the evenings, her hunger kicks in, in the 5 o'clock hour and she eats more pellets then about 6 or 7 I give her brown rice, bulgar wheat, chicken, wheat pasta, wheat bread, corn, brocolli stuff like that and again at that time she goes back and forth between those foods and her pellets... I usually but haven't given her lately an avi-cake or millet or birdie carmel popcorn little treats like that maybe once or twice a week. I give her dandolion greens and I try to throw other greens in there like kale, mustard greens stuff like that but she don't always want them. So it's hit or miss.. Sometimes I'll get lucky and she will love on them and others she will snub them.

I have tried the premixed meals of rices and stuff but she don't like those she just likes plain ol rice. Like I mentioned earlier if we buy burgers she likes to nibble on the bun but she shreds it more than anything (although I do know that she does eat some) and usually if she can't have what I am having like chips, sweets, chocolate or something like that I will just wait till she goes to bed to eat my dinner cuz I don't want to have to deny her anything. Another thing that she likes that she does get on ocassion but not often is tortillas and on ocassion she will get a little tiny bit of cheese (her dr said small amounts as long as it's not very often are ok). I will also on ocassion give her bran flakes, cheerios, shredded wheat, those really hard tiny little cereal that have tons of fiber I can't remember the name of them and sometimes the cereal I can't think of that name either the snap, crackle and pop. But the cereal is not often at all, thats not even something she gets weekly, its just every once in a while.

Before this last yeast infection she would get fruits on ocassion apples, oranges & strawberries.
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Re: Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:13 pm

Oh and I forgot to say that I give her bottled water (the one I use) Aqua Fina and I give it to her from the fridge, she loves cold water.

And she has her house and a playgym that she plays on all the time and when shes not playing with the toys on her house or in her playgym and shes with me in the living room or in my room she has a toy box in both rooms that she always plays with. She don't appear to be stressed, we pretty much cater to her and it's just my Mom & I here at the house and we both spoil her and shower her with attention (like my Mom says shes the baby of the house) so we don't have alot of commotion or people and kids in and out or running around the house all the time that would stress her out. There hasn't been any changes in her enviorment that would be stressing her out. Christie I noticed that the articles you posted mentioned that stuff.. The only thing that I think may stress her out is when I leave the room and she stays calling and calling me till I go back in the room, but I have her with me at all times when I am home. It;s very rare that shes not with me when I am home. I include her in everything that I do shes pretty much attached to me at all times and when I;m not home my Mom stays with her in the living room and just leaves her when she cleans or has something to do. If I am straightening up or prepping food, or doing laundry Rosie is with me. When I clean I do it at night when she is asleep or I willl be running back and fourth between Rosie and what I am doing every 5 minutes or so.
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Re: Grrr

Postby bostonbudgie on Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:44 am

I know what youare going through Rosie....
I found these emails very informative. Thanks!!!!!!
Another thing a vet told me NOT to do with Button (she is prone to yeast) is not to kiss her. Button has a habit of trying to bite my mouth too. A human mouth is a petri dish of bacteria/virus/yeast.
I think the best thing is to talk to your vet and have them run another gram stain to see if the yeast is still there. And if it is, make a comprehensive report of EVERYTHING you feed Rosie and see what the vet thinks. It is possible something else is going on with Rosie and the yeast is a secondary manifestation.(?) (Like with Button, her situation is ongoing. I know I need to do that skin biospy but the risks of doing it are also high)
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Re: Grrr

Postby takoda on Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:44 am

out of curiosity, are you feeding a pellet food?

because they're full of fillers and crap, especially corn. There's some great food made by birdelicious specifically for a case of the yeasties...
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Re: Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:59 pm

Really no kisses?? Rosie gets tons of those she loves kisses. She don't bite my lips what she does do and I don't know if this is anything but when we cuddle she likes to put her little head right under my nose I think when I breath thru my nose the warm air that comes out she likes?? I don't know for sure..

I'm actually taking her in for an appt at 4:00 she didn't have much of an appetite last night nor today so far. My mom said that she has been sitting fluffed up all day while I was at work so I called in and they can see her at 4. I am gonna take a list of foods she eats regularly and see if the dr thinks I should eliminate anything..

Rosie does get Roudybush Pellets. Are the pellets your talking about to help prevent yeast infections?? I have never heard of that brand. More info would be lovely.. Rosie likes her pellets with warm water so that they get soft and mushy.
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Re: Grrr

Postby christie on Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:05 pm

Ask about adding Apple Cider Vinegar to her drinking water too. That can help curb yeast infections.

Insist on blood work-up, crop and vent swabs, not just a fecal. Have them check vitamin A levels if possible, like the articles I posted said, vitamin A difficiency can help along yeast.

If it is still yeast, insist on a med that doesn't have the antibiotic in it, that will lessen the effectiveness if there is no secondary infection causing the yeast.

A yeast infection is almost always a secondary infection. The primary infection, more than likely viral or bacterial, is what started the war with the friendly bacteria. Your first step to curing recurring yeast infections is to treat any viral or bacterial infections that may be present
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Re: Grrr

Postby Bluesbird Exotics on Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:40 pm

I use Roudybush rice pellets for one bird who has an allergy to corn. I order online from Echo's Haven in No. Carolina. A place closer to you might have a cheaper shipping fee.

Wishing you and Rosie the best this afternoon with the vet.
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Re: Grrr

Postby Rosies Mommy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:23 pm

Ugh, I forgot to ask about the ACV Grrrrr!!!! And her blood tests were just done for a 2nd time this year on July 17th.

I wonder if they will sell the rice pellets where I buy her regular ones. I would like to have a bigger variety than just one pellet for her so that she can have a change from time to time. I wonder if they will send me a sample.. Thanks for that info, I will check into getting a sample of them and if she likes those too I will buy her the rice pellets..
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Re: Grrr

Postby chibi-tori on Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:38 am

Rosies Mom,

If you feel comfortable holding Rosie, you can perform a quick check of her choanal slits by taking a large paper clip, a good bright light, and get her to take the paper clip in her mouth. Once she does, rotate the clip to open her beak, and look up into her upper beak to see the slits. There should not be any redness, nor should they be closed off. It's quite easy once you master getting the paper clip in her mouth. If there is redness around the choanal slits, she needs to be seen by the vet, and if the vet does not look at the condition of the slits, ask him/her to do so.

It sounds like Rosie has a good varied diet, but I must ask, why do you add water to soften up the pellets? I'm sure Rosie would have no problems whatsoever eating them dry, and while not likely, a moist pellet could be harboring some type of bacteria that given a tad of moisture becomes active. Other than that, you seem to have a grasp of what a good diet consists of. I hope your vet can find out what the cause of her problem is, and was stated in a previous post, yeast infections are usually not the main cause, as it could be a spin-off of some other infection.

Good luck in getting Rosie back to full health.

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Re: Grrr

Postby christie on Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:54 am

Sam, she posted in the other thread that Rosie is accually healthy. The new vet found nothing wrong.

I would avoid paper clips with our birds though, they are made of zinc.
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