I'm new here and full of questions! :)

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I'm new here and full of questions! :)

Postby BAuclair85 on Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:26 am

Hi everyone, I'm new here! I'm Briana, and I'm from Massachusetts. I'm owned by 2 'tiels (CJ and Buddy) and before them I grew up with a 'tiel named Bandit who lived a wonderful 20 years. I'm 24, so if your doing the math, that pretty much means I don't know what life would be like without a cockatiel whistling to me. Bandit taught me how to whistle as a kid. :) I also have 2 cats that think they're dogs and one jokster of a ferret.

I am by no means a breeder, but you can't tell my birds that because they don't care! Since then I have spent countless hours online reading up on how to successfully bring these eggs up so that they might become sweet, healthy and happy little balls of feathers. But there are just some things those sites don't cover and thats why I need all of you. In everything I've read from your posts, you are more educated that many vets I've met. So hopefully I can make some new friends and learn more with all of you!

My female CJ and my male Buddy mated on June 17th (to my horror, I've done everything I can to keep the cage from turning into a "nestable" place. I respect breeders for what they do) and she laid her first egg on June 21. I read that it is supposed to be 7 to 10 days before they lay eggs so, was this too soon? Is there a chance that it affected the babies or are they just super fertile? She has since laid 6 eggs, generally 1 every other day (one was laid with a shell so thin it immediately broke open and it looks like one got a bit crushed and is no longer alive.) I've candled the remaining 4 and they seem to be healthy, no red rings. Both Buddy and CJ are sitting on them in turns and have been doing wonderfully but I am wondering if this is taking too much of a toll on their bodies. They have both become constipated (or are at least not going to the bathroom very often at all). It started with CJ a week ago, and I figured that it was just from having a couple remaining eggs in her and that they hold it for long periods of time because they are in the nest. But now the consistancy has changed and it looks like there are no eggs left in her and she is still doing it. A week ago CJ went without any stool or urine for over 55 hours (and when she did, it was projectile dark green peasoup consistancy out the side of the cage. I made sure to thank her for that mess.) Since then they both only have one stool a day, hers are huge and very watery and the scent is absolutely horrid. It is sour and lingering. His don't have much of a scent but they are looser and larger than normal. They have a 50/50 diet of pellets and seed (One bowl of each, though they prefer the seed) and dried fruits and greens. They don't seems to much like the dried fruits, greens or egg (hard boiled and scrambled I've tried) I have tried providing them with, though CJ loves plain Cheerios (I only allow her 2 or 3 a day a couple days a week). Is there something else I should be adding to their diet that is causing their stool to be like this?

Also, any tips or further information on what else I should be doing or help on what lies ahead would be welcome with open arms. I'm nervous about this entire process and want to make sure I do it right, for the babies and parents sake. They deserve it!


PS. For anyone in the Massachusetts/Rhode Island Area, do you have a Avian vet you reccomend? I currently have Dr. Greg Mertz ("The Odd Pet Vet") as my birdy doctor but was hoping for a few options incase he is on vacation or unavailable should an emergency arise. Having a couple vets on hand never hurts.

Thank you for reading my mini novel and I can't wait to get to know you all!!


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  • Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby Rhodie on Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:51 am

    Welcome, Briana.

    I would suggest that you ask Dr Mertz who will be covering for him, google- Massachusetts Avian Vets or check the site for Angell Memorial Animal Hospital in Boston. I believe Tufts has an animal hospital Rt 9 W off 495 in North Grafton, which is a distance from you.

    As far as the birds and laying- Chibi-tori (Sam) and Claudia have had chick additions and Mfids and Christie have fantastic knowledge and site location. I am sure that others will have more recommendations after the holiday and vacations...

    Smiles,

    Rhodie
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby MFids on Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:11 pm

    Welcome to UAS!!!! I can't recommend any avian vets but perhaps the following links may be of help!

    Vet Finder
    Birds N Ways - ABVP Certified Avian Veterinarians
    The American Board of Veterinary Practitioners
    Veterinarians & Pet Hospitals

    The following link is a thread asking for recipes, and I've included links to places that sell easy to make foods, as well as a list of healthy foods as well as foods to avoid. It is in no way complete, but it gives you a good idea of a variety of foods that are acceptable.
    Foods (some links may be broken)


    As for CJ and Buddy, how old are they? Do you know if they are related or not? The soft shelled egg sounds like either a calcium deficiency or a vitamin D deficiency. You may find the following article of interes: CALCIUM, PHOSPHORUS & VITAMIN D3 IN YOUR BIRD'S DIET

    The diet sounds ok, although there is some debate as to whether or not smaller species of parrots should be on a diet that includes more than 25% pellets. If you are feeding pellets, it's best to go with one that is as natural/organic as possible, that is, if they'll eat them, dye-free pellets. Totally Organics, Foundation Formula, Roudybush, and Harrison's are usually said to be some of the best brands. I've got on bird eating Roudybush (Renal Care - special order), and the others, if they eat it, Zupreem Natural.

    As for mating, well I really can't answer your question very thoroughly since I am not a breeder, nor do I encourage any of my birds to reproduce. They may lay eggs in the spring/summer time but do not get a chance to incubate the eggs (I've only got one male and 4 hens, thus one pair with at least two hens laying eggs. The hen that's paired up lays her eggs from a high perch, so they always break open :? ). All I can say is that it takes about 2 or so days for an egg to be created, so the egg would have needed to be fertilized at least on the 19th or before. If it was not fertilized the egg will not hatch. In order to find out whether or not the eggs are fertilized, you need to candle them [use a flashlight or pen light, holding it up to the large end of the egg] about 5-7 days after incubation [sitting tightly] of the eggs. Fertile eggs will have red veins, and as the chick grows, an orange dot that turns red and grows larger to fill the inside of the egg. If an egg is not fertile, leave it. Otherwise, the hen might try to replace the egg and could cause more stress to her body than need be.

    In regards to the consipation, hens usually deficate less when in breeding mode, because they generally do not want to get their nest dirty, and because they may be laying eggs. Hens may have an egg inside of them that may not overly affect their health, but may lead to being egg-bound and not being able to expell the egg. Still, not going to the bathroom throughout the entire day can be a cause for concern, and something I'd recommend at least speaking to an avian vet with, if not getting an exam as well, to ensure that both birds are healthy. It could be just a quirk of theirs, but I've never heard of birds not going to the bathroom several times a day, even while in breeding mode.


    Breeding hens do need higher amounts of calcium, protein, and vitamin D in their diet so that they do not become calcium deficient, and all that extra protein is good for the chicks if/when they are born. Breeding hens should also receive plenty of exercise daily, to ensure good muscle and body tone, which helps to ensure that they can lay eggs. A hen in poor health may struggle more to lay eggs.


    Since it sounds like you plan on allowing the pair to reproduce, assuming the eggs are fertile, do they have a nestbox with nesting material? Can you handfeed in case of emergencies or if you have the desire to handraise the chicks? Do you have handfeeding supplies? Do you have room to house the chicks once they are weaned? These are just some things to think about, and if you are not fully prepaired you might want to look for a breeder within your area who could show you how, or at least one who may be willing to take the chicks if there is an emergency (i.e. parents plucking chicks, parents not feeding chicks, overfeeding them, ignoring the chicks, or mutilating the chicks).

    Perhaps you might be able to find a breeder within your area on the following website!
    http://www.birdbreeders.com/



    Best of luck!
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby BAuclair85 on Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:54 pm

    Thanks! Both CJ and Buddy are approximately 2 1/2 years old, as told to me by the woman I adopted them from. She stated that Buddy was adopted in from another person (He has a metal band on his ankle, while CJ doesn't) and told me that they had bonded after he had arrived and would be a good mating pair but she had only kept them as pets. I didn't bother to ask much on the mating aspect because I just wanted them for companionship, not breeding.

    The pellets I have are Lefeber's, they don't mind them, but certainly don't like them compared to seed. I'm going to look into those other brands you mentioned and see if any are sold around here. The one I purchased is sold at Petco and Petsmart and seemed the healthier and more all natural of the few they offered.

    After I caught them mating I bought them a wider flight cage with a large nestbox (I figure if we're all going to do this, we might as well do it right, haha) and plenty of nesting cotton. Currently I've got a cotton towel lining the bottom of the box, then a solid layer of 100% cotton, then the cotton nesting fluff. I also purchased Kaytee Exact handfeeding formula (it says for all baby birds on it) and a feeding syringe incase CJ and Buddy don't do well with feeding or raising them. Is this an okay formula or should I return it and get an alternative version (if so, what would all of you reccomend?) I've alerted my boss that I'll have to take time off after the birds are born, and my mother is also home a good portion of the time over the summer so she can care for them when I have to work. I've read up on how to handfeed as well (kind of like getting back on a bike, I worked at Petco through high school, so I often cared for, fed and trained the new baby birds sent in.) I'm not sure if there are an breeders around but my exmanager from Petco offered her number incase I have an emergency and need help. Thank you for the link, I'll start looking immediately!

    And I know this is a bit soon to ask, as they haven't even hatched but every breeder seems to have a different time that they wean the babies from the parents. My only fear is that if I let the babies stay with the parents too long, that they might end up being aggressive or antisocial towards humans. Buddy and CJ were clearly not well cared for emotionally (hence why I adopted them away from the woman) and are very skiddish of humans. Then again, I wouldn't trust humans either after the way I saw that woman grab and yank them out of their cage and into mine. I don't want the babies following in their parents footsteps. I also plan to resume working with Buddy and CJ after the babies are born and older on trusting me (doing "step up", hand feeding, coming within a foot of me without attempting to hiss or lunge at me, not getting my fingers violently crunched on. Sheesh that hurts.) One website said that the gentleman removed the babies after 10 days which just seems entirely too soon and traumatizing to both babes and parents. To those of you with breeding/previous clutch experience- what do you reccomend?

    Rhodie and MFids, thank you so much for your input and suggestions, it is wholeheartedly appreciated by not only myself, but Buddy and CJ as well!
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby christie on Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:20 pm

    I'm glad you are here and asking questions, and more importantly, trying to do things right!!

    I would dump the nesting cotton and towel, they are dangerous to chicks. Toes can easily get caught and amputated in cotton towel loops. Aspen or pine shavings are better to use, if you can find it, carefresh bedding is also good.

    Invest in a digital scale to weigh the chicks.

    I did allow my pair to breed once, my hen plucks her offspring, so I have not allowed nesting since. They do mate, and in 6 years I've only had 1 egg.

    My expierence is allow the parents to feed the chicks, but handle the chicks daily. As they get older and are feathered, you can handle them for longer and longer periods of time. This will start them on the way to being social. Make sure that after they fledge that you still spend one on one time daily with the chicks as they forget that hands are nice pretty quick. I would learn how to handfeed just in case there is a problem, but I wouldn't pull to handfeed just to socialize, too many things can go wrong. I have a photo link of a 'too that was handfeed formula that was too hot and it burned the crop. Very horrible for the poor thing.

    Many breeders pull to handfeed at 10 days or so. Unless there is a problem, like I said before, it is better for the parents to feed. This prevents asperation of formula, infection, pneumonia, crop burn, slow crop, and it will make it so you are able to sleep! Remember, a baby bird is worse than a baby human, they need fed around the clock, need to be kept in a brooder at a specific temprature, and if their crop isn't empty, you should never "top it off" this causes infection. Handfed birds also wean later and have a horrid tendancy to regress and need feeding again after weaning somewhere around 10 weeks old. Also, if you find you need to handfeed, you will need a syringe for each chick. If they share syringes, you run the risk of them sharing germs if one starts to get an infection, making every chick sick.

    Have you checked out cockatiel cottage yet? That site is full of great information. Here is their site http://www.cockatielcottage.net/breeding.html
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby MFids on Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:15 pm

    Lafebers is a good choice! You might want to contact several pellet companies and see if any offer free samples. Soem may not offer free samples but may have a money back guarantee instead. The following link has a list of pellet manufacturers and you can get the contact information at the bottom of the page. All I can say is that cockatiels may do better on a lower protein diet than some other species, and I do not know the ideal amount.
    http://www.artemisaviary.com/pellet.html

    What flight cage do they have?

    The cotton nesting material is a *BIG* no-no since parrots do not weave nests. A more appropriate material would be aspen, or if you can not find that, some pine shavings, frozen for at least 24 hours if not longer, then aired out for a bit, or recycled paper. You might be interested in reading the next article. Although the article is not intended for nesting material, it still has some valuable information since some of the products are also used within nest boxes.
    CAGE LINERS - The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

    A lot of people swear by Kaytee Exact, although a few others do enjoy the one by Zupreem Embrace and feel that it's a better brand. One particular breeder actually preferred a mixture of Roudybush and Exact over the others. Another person enjoys Lafebers handfeeding formula, however the census (or at least those who replied) said Embrace. I, personally, am a bit skeptical of the cheaper products sold to birds, but I do have Kaytee Embrace which I had bought for a teenaged conure who got his beak injured - of which I no longer feed to him because I'm not his mate.... :? Here's a couple of articles on handfeeding formulas and some other stuff
    Today’s Hand-Feeding Formulas
    Handfeeding 101


    As for syringes, I've heard of breeders who swear by syringes with silicone plungers since the rubber ones, in due time, will swell up and become hard to plunge. With that said, the rubber plungers can be easily disposed of and replaced, while the silicone ones supposedly last much longer. You should have several syringes in the following sizes, 1 cc, 3 cc, and 5 cc, perhaps even a 10 cc syringe. The different sizes would be good for chicks at different stages of growth.
    Handfeeding Step-By-Step


    Cockatiel chicks are usually taken from the parents at about 2-3 weeks of age for handfeeding, unless the breeder feels it is necessary to feed from the time the chicks hatch. My first cockatiel was quite possibly incubator hatched, and from what I understand, completely raised by humans, although I recommend not handfeeding until chicks are at least 2 weeks old if possible. With that said, there are thousands of birds, particularly the smaller species (tiels, budgies, lovebirds, etc) who are parent raised and sold, and many still become tame, a few even learn to talk! Handraised birds *USUALLY* guarantees sweeter birds, so long as they are continually worked with, but many parent raised birds can easily be tamed as well. I'm sure your two cockatiels could be tamed down if you take the time with them. One of the easiest ways is to let the birds come to you, instead of forcing them to interact. Take out all their food at night, and first thing in the morning, offer them food from your hand, or perhaps some millet. Leave your hand in the cage for 5-15 minutes. If they show no interest, give them food for the day and try again the next day. Given time, they can become more confident with humans! Heck, I took 5 flighted, untamed, adult budgies, who were at least 3-8 years old, and got them to fly to my hand every day to eat! My goal wasn't to tame them, but I'm sure if I worked with them more I could have easily done so.


    Check out the following videos and check out the dates posted on them as well.
    1 Bird in hand Leads to Many
    Feeding Budgies 2
    More Budgies!!!!


    I've got some older cockatiels that, although I have not tamed, have calmed down, due to the type of situation I put them in, which you may have interest in, and I can tell you another time!
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby BAuclair85 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:29 am

    I finally uploaded some pictures onto Photobucket, heres my lovely CJ and handsome Buddy (CJ's was taken today and she was a little mad and fluffed because she wanted her bath time)
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... G_3897.jpg
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... C07412.jpg

    Okay, so yesterday I went out and got the unscented aspen shavings you both reccommended and put them in, the birds didn't seem to care one way or the other what was in but at least everyone is still happy! I recandled the eggs, 2 don't really have the veining of the others, but I can see a large orange mass in each of them. The other two still have all the veins and are getting dark inside, I hope that means they are still okay and just growing quick and not another form of a blood ring. I also purchased a powdered vitamin dust to put on the seed in hopes to bring up their calcium levels since I tried dandelion greens and they wouldn't touch them. They eat the seed with the powder without second thought.

    This is the cage they are in, though it looks small in that picture.
    http://www.petco.com/product/100285/Pre ... agesstands
    This is their cage, sorry the pictures a bit dark. That's CJ on the perch. (I was in the middle of feeding and putting new water in, thats why you don't see the bowls)
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... G_3893.jpg
    And while I hate posting stuff like this, you all know far more than I so here it is, a poo picture. This is one of CJ's from early on, they're a bit more solid and brown now. The wood shavings aren't part of it, that'd be Buddy being bored and shredding the ladder next to the nestbox.
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... C07405.jpg
    Eggies!!!
    http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... C07438.jpg

    I'm going to have to search the internet a bit for feeding syringes in those sizes, since the only one they had at either Petco or Petsmart was the 10ml rubber syringe. And I've started checking around for digital weight scales. I'm looking on Ebay right now. :) I'm also looking into the other types of handfeeding formula you reccommended MFids. Thank you so much for all your help and patience. I've been attempting to keep a picture diary going of everything these past weeks and put it on photobucket, so all the pictures of Buddy and CJ are on this album here!
    http://s470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... %20babies/


    If I do end up having to pull the chicks for parental plucking or aggression, I read somewhere that the best thing is a 10 gallon tank with a heating pad on low under one side of the tank and papertowels lining it. Do I have it right or is there something else I should use? I just want to have all bases covered in case of an emergency.
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby christie on Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:21 pm

    th 10 gallon tank will work just fine. Just remember that bedding will need to be in there with the chicks.

    I can't see the photos, but wanted to comment on the candling. The dark mass is the growing chick, since you know you have fertile eggs, I wouldn't bother candling any more. After they hatch, leave any unhatched eggs in the box with the chicks, the eggs will help retain heat and give the chicks support.

    Digital kitchen scales will work just fine and are cheap, just go to your local target/walmart type store and purchase one.

    To make the photos work, you need to wrap the link in img coding. Replace the () with [] in this coding
    (img)url here(/img)

    That will make it so we can see the photos in the post.

    To make links
    (url)url here(/url)
    Owned by birds since 1988.
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    Ash - DOH around 1999
    Unix - DOH around 1996
    IRN Princess Buttercup - DOH 2000
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    Slave to 8 birds. See them here.

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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby christie on Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:31 pm

    You will also want a thermometer for inside the brooder to make sure you are keeping it at the correct temprature.

    Here are some links for handfeeding supplies

    http://www.windycityparrot.com/page/Windycityparrot/CTGY/Breeding

    http://www.petstore.com/ps_searchItem-category-Bird_Breeding_Hand_Feeding_Formula_Supplies-IdCategory-BDFOBR.html

    http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=5059+5729

    The only company I gave a link for that I have done business with is Drs Foster Smith. I find them to be reasonable.
    Owned by birds since 1988.
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    Ash - DOH around 1999
    Unix - DOH around 1996
    IRN Princess Buttercup - DOH 2000
    4 Lady Gouldian Finches (Lil Red, Houdini, O'Neill, Teal'c DOH 2003)
    Slave to 8 birds. See them here.

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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby BAuclair85 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:17 pm

    This is the link for the photobucket album of CJ and Buddy
    http://s470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69 ... %20babies/

    Buddy
    Image

    CJ
    Image

    Their Cage
    Image

    Questionable Poo from CJ
    Image

    Eggs!
    Image

    Theres more cute pictures in the first link like the two of them in the nest box and CJ taking a bath. :)

    Christie- thanks for the help and tips! I'll drop by Walmart tomorrow and grab a scale. And I'll check out Dr Foster Smith right now! :)
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby MFids on Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:19 pm

    Just a thing about calcium, if birds don't have a enough vitamin D then they may not be able to absorb calcium efficiently, so could remain calcium deficient without vitamin D. Be sure to check out the article above that I mentioned on the subject if you haven't already. Check the vitamins and see if it's got any vitamin D in it, as well.

    With the size cage you have, I'd actually recommend putting the nestbox on the outside of the cage. I can't tell for sure but it looks like there may be a door for a nestbox on the right side of the cage. With the type of nestbox you have, you could drill two holes on the front of the box, near the top, and use some bolts, washers, and nuts/wingnuts to attach to the cage... make sure you use stainless steel or nickel plated parts... otherwise, put the cage near a counter or somewhere where you could set the nestbox up next to the cage.

    ATM, I can't really comment on the poo, other than the fact that hens usually have rather large droppings while in breeding mode and it's normal for them to hold it in for longer, thus making for abnormal droppings.



    When you reply to a thread or make a new one, there should be some buttons above the reply box. If you click on the "Img" button, you can post the direct link to the photo, although with Photobucket you can easily just use the Img Code instead. If you want to post URL's, try and use the URL button, posting the URL where the button puts your "mouse" at. This way, if you ever preview your post, your links will not get messed up. I used the direct link for an image below, without the URL brackets, with the URL brackets, and then with the IMG brackets. I then Previewed the page, so you can see what it does to the links. If you submit without previewing your message when you have unbracketed URL's then you don't need to worry about your links messing up. But if your links don't have the URL or IMG brackets they will get messed up.
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    URL No Brackets - Not Previewed Just Submitted ---> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/ ... 0ab7df.jpg
    URL With Brackets ---> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/MonicaNFids/The%20Fids/Noel%20N%20Casey/610ab7df.jpg
    URL With IMG Brackets ---> Image


    The good thing at least is that if you make a mistake, you can always go back and edit your post.
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    Re: I'm new here and full of questions! :)

    Postby bostonbudgie on Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:31 am

    Congrats!
    Another Massachusetts birdy fan! 8)
    Dr Mertz is one of the best other than Dr Connie Orcutt from Angel memorial. Dr Sagar in Acton MA is pretty good too.These Doctors are too far south for me to go to now.
    When birds are in egg laying mode and egg brooding mode they do those large voluminous poops.It is good that you have the nest box set up like you do so the Mum & pop can come out to poop because they will NOT poop in the nest box.
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