upatsix.com - Your Source For Pet Bird Information

Long story short.. I recently purchased a dominant pied blue male pacific parrotlet from a breeder. He was shipped to me via Delta, and I took him to the avian vet the next day for his initial checkup. The bird had a scaley face mite infestation that according to the vet must have taken several weeks to get to that point due to there being a hole in the beak and lots of tunneling under the top layers. It didn't happen in the 24 hours since the breeder shipped the bird. He also had an infection that's being treated with antibiotics. I haven't gotten the gram stain and bloodwork results back yet and am almost dreading that call. Here's a pic of the beak, taken just a couple hours after I got him home, ie..about 12 hours after he left the breeder.


This bird was supposed to have been lavished with attention and healthy, but now that his infection is getting better and he doesn't have a massive parasite load he's wild and timid as can be. I should have been suspicious when I asked before he was shipped if he'd need a health certificate and the breeder got testy..

I have to go back to the vet (a 9-10 hour roundtrip) in two weeks for another mite treatment, and want her to look him over again while he's there just to make sure everything's good. When everything is totalled up, including my time/gas money/vet bills, I'm out more than the bird originally cost. The breeder acted surprised when I told her about the initial vet visit, almost offended that I would think he got the mites and the infection there. She was supposed to be taking her birds to her vet to be looked over for mites but I've heard nothing. Not even an apology.

So, I was either knowingly sold a sick bird, or was lied to about him being handled so much. The beak problem was immediately noticeable, and even if it wasn't known that it was mites it sure couldn't be looked at with a "that's normal" attitude.

What would you guys do? I don't want to wage an all out war with the breeder and know my chances of recovering any money are slim and none, but would like people to know of my personal experience with this person and let them make their own decisions as to whether they'd buy a bird if they knew it looked like the above pic.

He's already doing much better, btw. Cute little guy.

I'm glad he's doing better. He IS cute! I feel strongly that this sort of information should be shared, and the internet and especially these chats make it easy to do that. Some large breeders have, in the past, threatened legal action when we've posted information of this type, so it's important to be very factually correct and not state implications that go beyond what you know.

For example, in this case, you know the bird you received had an infection that your vet feels long pre-existed shipping. Your picture of the beak damage backs that up. You don't know if her other birds are infected, so post only about the one you know. And of course identify the breeder so others can avoid buying from her.

Her liability to you depends solely on the health guarantee under which she sold you the bird. Even an oral guarantee usually has legal validity, but only if you're willing to pursue a legal remedy. For the cost of a single parrotlet, I daresay you're not, and she would probably make that same assumption. Therefore, the most leverage you can exert is likely through posting about her failure to make good on the health guarantee she told you she would provide, if she did tell you that.

Most breeders' health guarantees are only for replacement rather than payment of vet costs because they know that you've probably fast grown fond of the bird and will not want to return it, especially not in exchange for a bird from the same aviary. Plus, vet costs often exceed the purchase cost of the bird, even for a single visit.

So, again, I advocate for posting about your experience to help others shop more wisely.

Paca

I appreciate the reply. The price on this parrotlet was $400 plus shipping charges, so figuring I won't go after it would be somebody's first mistake. I also do have a health guarantee in writing that I am sending in a highlighted scan to this breeder as we speak to gently remind her. If that doesn't work, I'll be heading to the courthouse.

This is, word-for-word, the clause from the invoice:
"terms and conditions:
This company warrants that, at time of purchase, the bird(s) invoiced are in good health. The BUYER is encouraged to have bird(s) examined by a veterinarian of his/her choice within 3 days of purchase. If during this 3 day period, the bird(s) are found to have a condition that affects their health or well-being as determined by the examining veterinarian, this company agrees at its discretion, to either refund to the BUYER the purchase price or to replace said bird(s) with bird(s) of the same species, sex (if known) and age or bird(s) of equal value if so agreed by BUYER. In case of death, the return of the uncut leg band and a vet report are also required"

As far as other birds affected and threatening me with lawsuits, I have all that in her own writing. Will make sure I am covering my own rear as well. I appreciate the tips!

So you're returning the poor bird to her in order to get your purchase price refunded? I understand that, since you're a breeder, that makes good sense. As a pet owner, I fall in love with my birds quickly and would never dream of returning one.

Good luck, Paca

Nobody said I was a breeder, and I'm curious as to where that came from? I'd also like to know where it was exactly that I said I would be returning the bird? I'm not, just wanting to get this person to pay for the extra vet bills pertaining to an illness gotten while in their care, as they should. As I am a pet owner, does that make it okay for this unethical breeder to sell sick babies to me? I shouldn't ask for some sort of money to recoup my losses over a bird sent to me sick when I have a health guarantee and held up my end of the bargain? Only if I'm a breeder does it make it against any kind of moral standing?

I hate when people assume things. I'll just take this to legal counsel where they'll listen to what I'm actually saying.

My, you flare fast. Your posts looking to buy male and female p'lets and a pi in just 3 wks' time misled me. No offense meant. I was just trying to make as much sense of your situation as I could.

Your legal counsel will most definitely give better advice than I ever could, but I do believe the guarantee is based on your returning the sick bird. It's all I've ever heard. I hope I'm wrong.

Paca

Legally, unless you send the bird back (and absorb the shipping cost), you are not entitled to a refund or replacement. Then, or course, are you really prepared to go through the delays in getting some sort of satisfaction, after spending all your time and money in bringing the bird back to health? That same breeder has the option of replacing that bird...do you really want another one from that breeder? Of course, you will be the loser if the bird just happens to die upon the return shipment or shortly after arrival, since it has already been alive for so long after you accepted it. The better business bureaus from both of your states will not be moved by the emotional details, and how much more are you willing to spend and lose in a private legal tangle?
Since you already came across as being a bit hot-tempered, and slightly untruthful. (The "I am not a breeder" claim.) I am not sympathetic and don't mind adding more fuel to the fire. In looking at the risks people are willing to take, I say, "Anyone who can afford to spend $400 like that can afford to lose $400."

Personally, as a breeder, I would do everything possible to ensure the satisfaction of my customers, but my first concern would be the health and well-being of my guys (babies and breeders). If a customer came to me and said one of my birds arrived sick and infested with mites, I would be horrified! I would contact the avian vet where the bird was examined, get the full report myself and have that vet contact my own vet for a consultation and figure out what happened. If it was something that was incontraverably my fault, I would do everything possible to help the bird first. That might involve taking the bird back and not reselling him. Or if the person was set on keeping the bird, I would offer to cover the vet bills. That's the least I could do, but then again, I'm a very small breeder and I am way too over-protective of my guys!

As for the "warranty" you posted, that is the standard default warranty that comes in the Avimate software (breeder record software). Not very many people can follow that warranty because it is so generic. One little mistake on the part of the customer (like taking the bird to a regular vet, not at avian vet) can void the whole thing. Just be careful. It's doubtful that you'll get your money back and be able to keep your bird, but you may be able to get the vet bills covered, at least partially.

Good Luck!!!

I hope your parrotlet gets better! It's so upsetting when a baby birdie is sick. Let us know how your baby is doing. I agree with you that at least the breeder should pay the vet bills. We didn't get a guarantee with our bird and didn't have a sick bird when we had the "well bird" check up so we never had to deal with that, but I wish you luck with it. Let us know what happens with it. There's no telling when someone else will have this happen to them and it's nice to know what to expect from someone that went through this (I can't imagine having a sick bird and dealing with a bad breeder at the same time!).

I know I've read about people on this chat buying birds from breeders and having them shipped. If it is possible, I at least would like to know the name of the company and the breeder (in case they open another company). We're not planning on buying any bird w/o seeing it, however, you never know what will happen down the road if we want a particular type of bird and can get it no other way.

Just a heads up: DO NOT POST THE NAME OF THE BREEDER/COMPANY ON THIS PUBLIC FORUM! You will leave yourself open to a liable lawsuit or at minimum, you can be banned from this site for repeated violations. If anyone is interested in the name of the breeder, send it via email or pm. That way, it is not public knowlege, just info from one person to another.

Hi,
I know you posted the name of the aviary in the bird chatter section. I can understand your frustration. However, I'm wondering if you gave this breeder ample time to respond to your emails/phone calls/letters? I know in this day and age it's hard to understand how some people can't return a simple email, but sometimes "life gets in the way" and not everyone has the time to sit down and type something up the minute they receive an email, etc.

I'm not saying anyone is in the right or wrong. Just wondering if maybe you jumped the gun some?

The contract you pasted is a VERY generic contract. More then likely you will have to send the bird back (at your cost) and at the most get reimbursed the cost of the bird, that's if the breeder is generous. It actually does NO good to go to your local courthouse and file a claim. You have to go to the state/county the seller is in and most people don't have the means or money to spend on plane tickets, hotels, etc for a "small" amount of money. Even if you did, it's no guarantee you will ever see your money, should you win in court.

Honestly, like I said the contract is VERY generic. It makes no mention of sending the bird back (who eats this cost), the vet bills (who pays these), etc. It simply says at the SELLERS discretion a refund of purchase price or another bird. I would take that as you might get your 400.00 back, but nothing more.

Sorry. The breeder should have a MORE detailed contract to protect BOTH buyer and seller, and the buyer should have said something about this contract being so vague on things.

Couple of things pop out at me.

1. On another forum you posted that the beak damage was something you were aware of, and it had been caused by a bite, plausible based on the photo you sent.

2. The respiratory infection could very well have occurred due to the stress of shipping

3. The wild and timid behaviour is not unexpected in my experience. YOu have a bird who was terribly stressed, removed from all familiar surroundings and handlers, and put on a big, loud, scary machine, handled in who knows what manner by cargo crew, can't say as I would have expected him to come out of that experience all smiles and kisses. Any new bird is going to take time to adjust to new surroundings and new people, and frankly, they might not always bond with their new caretaker, such is the nature of birds, especially opinionated little parrots like these guys are. He needs time to adjust to his new life, sounds, routines, and quiet, patient interaction with his new people, and his new people might get bit a few times in the process, part and parcel of owning parrots.

4. Were I your breeder, I'd ask for a copy of the vet exam, as well as the phone number to talk to the vet directly. My actions on behalf of the bird would be based on my conversations with the vet, (facts) not on the demand of a buyer I don't know from Adam. While you may be perfectly honest, your breeder may have bad experiences with folks who are simply trying to get something for nothing, and people can be quite creative when trying to get money back. Sit back and try to see things from both sides, hard to do, but far more effective than ranting on a chat board, and bad mouthing someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

5. Scaley face mites. Simply looking at the photos you share, there is no obvious external evidence of infection, I'd bet the breeder had no idea the bird had a problem at the time of shipping. Treatment is actually quite simply, SCATT on the back, or an ivermectin product in the water, typically clears things up rather quickly. I can see why he/she didn't rush a bunch of birds to their vet, a lot of stress on the birds for something relatively easy to take care of at home, not to mention a whole lot of expense for multiple birds to be treated in a vet's office, as well as the risk of exposure to all sorts of nasties, who knows what virii are floating around at an avian vet's office.

So before everyone condemns this breeder as irresponsible or worse, keep in mind we haven't heard her side of the story, we have one side presented on a chat board, nothing more. I know I sound unsympathetic, I'm not. But I'm sympathetic to both sides. I've purchased birds who weren't as healthy as I would have liked, and I'd have been thrilled to have it be something as simple as scaley face, but I don't go kvetching and badmouthing the seller, I suck it up, let the seller know there was a problem,have never asked for a refund, and chalk up my loss to a learning curve, and make SURE I don't repeat my mistakes.