F8, I read your post closely. And I stand with what I've stated. There are more reasons for pulling than profit. Don't just blast out "most." I see every breeder and every situation as an individual, good or bad.
Please explain how to set up a nest box properly without it reaching the outside temperature. Don't direct me to just google it. Btw I'm glad you came back around the 2nd time and somewhat explained how to empty out a crop. Back to the nest box:
It is 100+deg outside, That is not out of line where I live. Yes the birds have shade, the nest box is shaded, so that puts it in the 90's (outside of the nest box). My birds have misters that turn on at set times, that helps them, but I cannot mist the boxes without bacteria forming. How does one properly place the nest box to avoid high temperatures? I'm being serious, not challenging you, just want to learn. Maybe my set-up is not proper, or can get better.
" However if one wants to only gavage/crop feed, that is fine also". It is fine, cruel IN MY OPINION, but fine.
I agree there is always a better way, and no, I don't know everything, nor do I state that your way is wrong. I'm always willing to learn. If one can't gavage feed or inject medication, have the resources to get someone to do it, regardless of the cost.
I feel we are getting a bit abrasive, myself included, so this will be my last post directed at F8. I don't know you, nor doubt you. My opinions are based on my experiences. I can't remember the last time a crop went sour on me, or the last time I had to deviate from syringe feeding, so I am not an expert at this.
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Breeding GCC, have a Question.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by did on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:02 pm
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by F8 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:27 pm
No, I personally have not had many emergencies in recent days, to answer your question. But I have tended successfully to occasional emergencies here and there, over an approx. 20 yr. period, both in feeding some of my own babies and in assisting local friends who have come to me with emergencies with babies and adults in their flocks. Some of my local friends have large flocks and when one has a large flock, problems arise more often than they do for people who only have a few birds.
Yes, I have saved de-hydrated babies and de-hydrated birds before (to include birds in shock) in my lifetime, even birds as small as finches. One of the best places to inject the electrolytes is into the webbing between the leg and body but again, one has to be careful. Best if the procedure is taught by an experienced person (preferably an avian vet).
For crop irrigation, you are correct, about the same temp. or slightly cooler by a couple degrees, than the formula. Depends on the size/age of the baby and how calm it is, regarding amount of water.
Yes, I have saved de-hydrated babies and de-hydrated birds before (to include birds in shock) in my lifetime, even birds as small as finches. One of the best places to inject the electrolytes is into the webbing between the leg and body but again, one has to be careful. Best if the procedure is taught by an experienced person (preferably an avian vet).
For crop irrigation, you are correct, about the same temp. or slightly cooler by a couple degrees, than the formula. Depends on the size/age of the baby and how calm it is, regarding amount of water.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by F8 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:52 pm
did wrote:F8, I read your post closely. And I stand with what I've stated. There are more reasons for pulling than profit. Don't just blast out "most." I see every breeder and every situation as an individual, good or bad.
Please explain how to set up a nest box properly without it reaching the outside temperature. Don't direct me to just google it. Btw I'm glad you came back around the 2nd time and somewhat explained how to empty out a crop. Back to the nest box:
It is 100+deg outside, That is not out of line where I live. Yes the birds have shade, the nest box is shaded, so that puts it in the 90's (outside of the nest box). My birds have misters that turn on at set times, that helps them, but I cannot mist the boxes without bacteria forming. How does one properly place the nest box to avoid high temperatures? I'm being serious, not challenging you, just want to learn. Maybe my set-up is not proper, or can get better.
" However if one wants to only gavage/crop feed, that is fine also". It is fine, cruel IN MY OPINION, but fine.
I agree there is always a better way, and no, I don't know everything, nor do I state that your way is wrong. I'm always willing to learn. If one can't gavage feed or inject medication, have the resources to get someone to do it, regardless of the cost.
I feel we are getting a bit abrasive, myself included, so this will be my last post directed at F8. I don't know you, nor doubt you. My opinions are based on my experiences. I can't remember the last time a crop went sour on me, or the last time I had to deviate from syringe feeding, so I am not an expert at this.
I agree with you that there are more reasons than just profit for pulling babies. I never said there weren't. If I did, quote exactly what I said & in context please.
I said "most" IMO and also will add in my experience. I was not saying every breeder.
If you are breeding in high temperatures that cause distress to your babies, then IMO you should NOT be breeding them outside but instead do so inside in a cooler place with or without air-conditioning or only during the parts of the yr. that they can be fairly comfy outside with proper ventilation of their nest-boxes etc.
Not at all "cruel" IMO, so we will just have to disagree on that issue I guess. Or you can explain why you feel it is "cruel" and then I can give you my reasons on why it is not. Up to you.
I don't feel we are being abrasive myself, not any more than is somewhat common place in airing different opinions and experiences, sometimes those of a passionate nature. But then again, my skin is a little more thicker than the average person. I apologize if I have in any way offended you. I do think that I maybe could have worded some of my sentences in a sweeter way if you had not used certain words to me or in reference to me, in your posts. Just saying.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by did on Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:25 pm
In one post you state "YES, THAT IS THE ADVICE I GIVE relating to if one can't safely and properly gavage feed, crop evacuate and even give SUB-Q injections and IM injections, then IMO one should NOT be breeding at all."
Then in another, you state
"No, I personally have not had many emergencies in recent days, to answer your question. But I have tended successfully to occasional emergencies here and there, over an approx. 20 yr. period, both in feeding some of my own babies and in assisting local friends who have come to me with emergencies with babies and adults in their flocks. Some of my local friends have large flocks and when one has a large flock, problems arise more often than they do for people who only have a few birds." Did you advice your friends with large flock that they have no business breeding? This is the part that bothers me. I can't figure out where you stand. Why did you wait til they had a large flock to tell them they shouldn't be breeding?
And please define large flocks? Currently I reside with 40 parrots (give or take, breeder/pets). Is this a large flock per your standard? I don't get many health problems. I associate with breeder who have 3x's as many as my flock, and yes the odds are more problems will arise, but not many.
IMO gavage feeding is cruel. Agree to disagree. I will explain why I have this opinion. This is based on healthy babies.
Have you ever hand fed an eclectus? Did you notice how much passion goes into every taste of every drop? They will roll it in their tong and love every bit of it right until they swallow it because they want more. Letting them taste it then shoving a ss straw down their throat and dumping a load of food just to be sure they eat enough, to me is cruel. Why take that pleasure away. It's like saying "taste this, this is what you are missing."
Now feeding a GW, another story. They(most macaws in my experience) often time will take a mouth full of formula when full, and sling it everywhere. This is when I wonder if gavage feeding is such a bad idea. Most certainly easier, most certainly quicker, but I remind myself that if I want the easy way out, quit breeding birds.
I will take your approach, In my experience, most breeder who gavage feed do it because they don't have time to socialize while hand feeding. They have way too many birds to give them the attention they deserve. This is unfair to the ones that do this out of necessity for the birds. I hate broad statements like this. Expect someone who is passionate about what they do (like yourself) to defend why it is unfair to make broad statements.
I live in south Texas, and if you are familiar with Texas, you know the weather is unpredictable. In my neck of the woods, we've been at 60-70 degrees for the last few weeks. Usually by now we are high 80's to 90's. I don't tell the birds what part of the yr to breed. Because of Texas weather, I don't care for double clutching. Your answer is you shouldn't be doing it. That's it? I honestly expected a better answer. I thought there were some trick to proper placement. Just like your response to a newcomer on breeding, you shouldn't be breeding.
No need to sugar coat words. Broad statements offend me. Yes, you and I are passionate people. Believe it or not, I actually like this debate, and actually respect you for taking your stance. I would like to learn from another angle. This is the first time in a long time I remember someone stating that if you want to gavage feed that's fine.
Then in another, you state
"No, I personally have not had many emergencies in recent days, to answer your question. But I have tended successfully to occasional emergencies here and there, over an approx. 20 yr. period, both in feeding some of my own babies and in assisting local friends who have come to me with emergencies with babies and adults in their flocks. Some of my local friends have large flocks and when one has a large flock, problems arise more often than they do for people who only have a few birds." Did you advice your friends with large flock that they have no business breeding? This is the part that bothers me. I can't figure out where you stand. Why did you wait til they had a large flock to tell them they shouldn't be breeding?
And please define large flocks? Currently I reside with 40 parrots (give or take, breeder/pets). Is this a large flock per your standard? I don't get many health problems. I associate with breeder who have 3x's as many as my flock, and yes the odds are more problems will arise, but not many.
IMO gavage feeding is cruel. Agree to disagree. I will explain why I have this opinion. This is based on healthy babies.
Have you ever hand fed an eclectus? Did you notice how much passion goes into every taste of every drop? They will roll it in their tong and love every bit of it right until they swallow it because they want more. Letting them taste it then shoving a ss straw down their throat and dumping a load of food just to be sure they eat enough, to me is cruel. Why take that pleasure away. It's like saying "taste this, this is what you are missing."
Now feeding a GW, another story. They(most macaws in my experience) often time will take a mouth full of formula when full, and sling it everywhere. This is when I wonder if gavage feeding is such a bad idea. Most certainly easier, most certainly quicker, but I remind myself that if I want the easy way out, quit breeding birds.
I will take your approach, In my experience, most breeder who gavage feed do it because they don't have time to socialize while hand feeding. They have way too many birds to give them the attention they deserve. This is unfair to the ones that do this out of necessity for the birds. I hate broad statements like this. Expect someone who is passionate about what they do (like yourself) to defend why it is unfair to make broad statements.
I live in south Texas, and if you are familiar with Texas, you know the weather is unpredictable. In my neck of the woods, we've been at 60-70 degrees for the last few weeks. Usually by now we are high 80's to 90's. I don't tell the birds what part of the yr to breed. Because of Texas weather, I don't care for double clutching. Your answer is you shouldn't be doing it. That's it? I honestly expected a better answer. I thought there were some trick to proper placement. Just like your response to a newcomer on breeding, you shouldn't be breeding.
No need to sugar coat words. Broad statements offend me. Yes, you and I are passionate people. Believe it or not, I actually like this debate, and actually respect you for taking your stance. I would like to learn from another angle. This is the first time in a long time I remember someone stating that if you want to gavage feed that's fine.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by fullkeel on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:28 pm
Wow, Were either of you guys ever on a debate team? Awesome.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by F8 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:18 pm
did wrote:In one post you state "YES, THAT IS THE ADVICE I GIVE relating to if one can't safely and properly gavage feed, crop evacuate and even give SUB-Q injections and IM injections, then IMO one should NOT be breeding at all."
Then in another, you state
"No, I personally have not had many emergencies in recent days, to answer your question. But I have tended successfully to occasional emergencies here and there, over an approx. 20 yr. period, both in feeding some of my own babies and in assisting local friends who have come to me with emergencies with babies and adults in their flocks. Some of my local friends have large flocks and when one has a large flock, problems arise more often than they do for people who only have a few birds." Did you advice your friends with large flock that they have no business breeding? This is the part that bothers me. I can't figure out where you stand. Why did you wait til they had a large flock to tell them they shouldn't be breeding?
My response (F8's response) is in BOLD GREEN LETTERING so I can address each of your statements separately and clearly (I hope).
First of all it sounds to me like you seem to be assuming that I do not have friends with one or two pairs of birds or with small flocks. Not all my local bird friends have large flocks. I did use the specific words "Some of my local friends ………..". And I did not say that the ones that have had crop problems with some of their babies are the same ones who have the larger flocks. Actually, those with large flocks rarely if ever ask me for hands-on assistance (though they might ask for an opinion over the telephone) as they know I am very busy myself here with my own flock, plus over the yrs. they themselves (while accumulating their own flocks) have learned most of what they need to know. Perhaps I should have made two different paragraphs out of the one that you are having the most confusion over.
And please define large flocks? Currently I reside with 40 parrots (give or take, breeder/pets). Is this a large flock per your standard? I don't get many health problems. I associate with breeder who have 3x's as many as my flock, and yes the odds are more problems will arise, but not many.
Not sure why you are being so defensive. Whether one has a small flock or large flock (whatever the number of parrots/birds), it doesn't really matter because regardless of size, a keeper of many birds or even one breeding pair should IMO have already learned or have a willingness to learn any and all skills that may be needed so that they can help any baby bird recover from any problem it may be having.
IMO gavage feeding is cruel. Agree to disagree. I will explain why I have this opinion. This is based on healthy babies.
Have you ever hand fed an eclectus? Did you notice how much passion goes into every taste of every drop? They will roll it in their tong and love every bit of it right until they swallow it because they want more. Letting them taste it then shoving a ss straw down their throat and dumping a load of food just to be sure they eat enough, to me is cruel. Why take that pleasure away. It's like saying "taste this, this is what you are missing."
Now feeding a GW, another story. They(most macaws in my experience) often time will take a mouth full of formula when full, and sling it everywhere. This is when I wonder if gavage feeding is such a bad idea. Most certainly easier, most certainly quicker, but I remind myself that if I want the easy way out, quit breeding birds.
Yes, I have fed Eclectus both ways, by syringe into the mouth and by using a gavage instrument inserted gently down into the crop - NOT "SHOVED IN" like you seem to want everyone to believe gavage feeders do? What is up with that! No, I have not noticed how much "passion" goes into tasting over and over again the same rather bland formulas that most hand-feeders feed any of their baby birds. The babies get hungry and when hungry they eat to fill up, to satisfy that hunger, not so much for taste while babies.
I will take your approach, In my experience, most breeder who gavage feed do it because they don't have time to socialize while hand feeding. They have way too many birds to give them the attention they deserve. This is unfair to the ones that do this out of necessity for the birds. I hate broad statements like this. Expect someone who is passionate about what they do (like yourself) to defend why it is unfair to make broad statements.
Huh, the last 2 sentences in this last paragraph of yours are unclear to me, it would be helpful to me if you proof-read your words for clarity, grammar, etc. before posting them. Just a suggestion. I try to do the same.
I live in south Texas, and if you are familiar with Texas, you know the weather is unpredictable. In my neck of the woods, we've been at 60-70 degrees for the last few weeks. Usually by now we are high 80's to 90's. I don't tell the birds what part of the yr to breed. Because of Texas weather, I don't care for double clutching. Your answer is you shouldn't be doing it. That's it? I honestly expected a better answer. I thought there were some trick to proper placement. Just like your response to a newcomer on breeding, you shouldn't be breeding.
What special "trick" could there be if the air temp. in the shade is in the 90's or 100's? Either you use air conditioning or you don't. If adding a breeze or adding ventilation holes doesn't help enough to keep the babies from panting or being distressed, then I think one should not be breeding birds outdoors in that climate. JMO.
No need to sugar coat words. Broad statements offend me. Yes, you and I are passionate people. Believe it or not, I actually like this debate, and actually respect you for taking your stance. I would like to learn from another angle. This is the first time in a long time I remember someone stating that if you want to gavage feed that's fine.
Again, sorry if I have offended you in any way as that was not my intention. I am glad that we can talk out our different positions with both of us hopefully learning something beneficial from the other. Very happy to see that so far our posts have not been edited, locked or deleted like they so often are on other bird-related chat boards. Passionate discussion and debate (even arguments) IMO are great tools to make progress sometimes.
I think why you do not hear that "gavage feeding is fine" more often is because most people IME are afraid to do it and very few (also IME) do it correctly.
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by fullkeel on Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:36 am
F8
IF one wanted to learn the emergency intervention procedures you mentioned, how would you suggest they begin? Reading list?
Also, where is the best place to obtain the equipment and supplies?
Thank you F8
Peter
IF one wanted to learn the emergency intervention procedures you mentioned, how would you suggest they begin? Reading list?
Also, where is the best place to obtain the equipment and supplies?
Thank you F8
Peter
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by F8 on Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:25 am
fullkeel wrote:F8
IF one wanted to learn the emergency intervention procedures you mentioned, how would you suggest they begin? Reading list?
Also, where is the best place to obtain the equipment and supplies?
Thank you F8
Peter
Best to learn from a very experienced person in your area. Avian vets would be the number #1 choice if they are willing to teach you - you might have to pay them for their time to do so. Or you could locate a good breeder in your area (well experienced) who would either teach you for free or maybe in exchange for some of your time helping out at his/her place or if you bought something from them, etc. … Bird only pet shops might have a very experienced person on hand who is willing to teach you, unless they feel you are going to come back at them (so to speak) if you do something wrong and accidentally kill a baby or bird.
You could also learn a lot on-line but nothing like learning in person. Learning on-line could be risky for the baby bird if you don't understand something correctly or if the presenter/teacher does not explain it properly. There is a bit of an art to teaching IMO.
You can Google stainless steel gavage feeding needles or instruments (I guess) to find places where you can purchase them on-line. I don't know where you live but some large cities should have a vet supply warehouse and they might carry them there or they could order them for you. Not a prescription item, so you should be able to buy from them I assume.
I would also invest in some good birdie medical books if you plan to be into birds for a long time. One book that is great is now on-line : Avian Medicine: Principals and Applications
Another is: Hand-feeding & Nursery Management by Howard Voren & Rick Jordan (I don't think there is an on-line version of this one)
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Re: Breeding GCC, have a Question.
by rmaryhugs on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:47 pm
Wow folks. I got to tell ya'.. some of this is intimidating.
I haven't hand fed a baby chick for many years. When I did it we used a teaspoon bent to shape a sort of shovel. As for formulas, we had to make our own. Guess that makes me cave woman age? LOL
I hand raised chicks from Love birds, Cockateils, BG Macaws, all in the same manor.
I have to admit it took 4 months of feeding my little cockateil for my breeder friend to tell me to stop feeding him and spoiling him so bad. He should have been weaned a long time before this. awww..poor baby...
Thank goodness there are new, better ways and formulas.
But really, I NEVER had a bad crop on any of my babies and everything was fun. Fun IF you have the time and patience it takes to hand feed chicks.
We had a real mess at the end of the feedings. Messy faces with food every where. But it was just a matter of a warm, wet wash cloth to clean up, followed by a kiss for being a good baby for "Mom".
I am now back into breeding for show and for pets to sale. I have just discovered the mutation colors of the GCC and absolutely love the intelligence of these little birds. They love people and being handled! Even birds I have purchased for breeding calm do quickly and love to be held and lay on their backs for me. But I learned fast to make sure there are locks on the cages or they get out of the cage and come looking for me! Thank goodness I keep and raise all my birds in my house with me.LOL
I look forward to my first clutch of GCC this coming season.
I have learned a lot on what is new for us hand feeding breeders just from reading all that has been said here.
Thanks for up dated information and keep doing your best to raise healthy, happy birds and sharing your knowledge.
rmaryhugs
I haven't hand fed a baby chick for many years. When I did it we used a teaspoon bent to shape a sort of shovel. As for formulas, we had to make our own. Guess that makes me cave woman age? LOL
I hand raised chicks from Love birds, Cockateils, BG Macaws, all in the same manor.
I have to admit it took 4 months of feeding my little cockateil for my breeder friend to tell me to stop feeding him and spoiling him so bad. He should have been weaned a long time before this. awww..poor baby...
Thank goodness there are new, better ways and formulas.
But really, I NEVER had a bad crop on any of my babies and everything was fun. Fun IF you have the time and patience it takes to hand feed chicks.
We had a real mess at the end of the feedings. Messy faces with food every where. But it was just a matter of a warm, wet wash cloth to clean up, followed by a kiss for being a good baby for "Mom".
I am now back into breeding for show and for pets to sale. I have just discovered the mutation colors of the GCC and absolutely love the intelligence of these little birds. They love people and being handled! Even birds I have purchased for breeding calm do quickly and love to be held and lay on their backs for me. But I learned fast to make sure there are locks on the cages or they get out of the cage and come looking for me! Thank goodness I keep and raise all my birds in my house with me.LOL
I look forward to my first clutch of GCC this coming season.
I have learned a lot on what is new for us hand feeding breeders just from reading all that has been said here.
Thanks for up dated information and keep doing your best to raise healthy, happy birds and sharing your knowledge.
rmaryhugs
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