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You guys have helped me over the years with issues with Chill, from her yeast infections to her two surgeries to remove the benign growths from her third eyelid (twice), to when she almost died during the last surgery for her eye.
I really do not know what happened and if anyone at all has any insight, input or just thoughts, any and all would be appreciated as I am deeply greiving and so sad.
Chilli had appeared fine, in fact, if anything this past weekend she seemed better then she has ever been, saying every word she ever knew, etc. She has not been sick in awhile. Then Monday, I uncovered her and she was all ruffled up on the bottom perch. She had thrown up in her water several times and looked more ill then I have ever seen her. With her yeast infections she typically threw up, but it was more like clear slime and she did really act that sick. This time is was more like milky, foamy type vomit and she appeared very ill. I took her to the vet and as we waited the ran the sample I brought on the slide. The vet came in and said the sample had no yeast but was FULL of bacteria and also had more epithelial cells in it then she has ever seen in 20 years of treating birds. She said that given the way Chill was appearing she was afraid to exmaine her without giving her oxegen and putting her in an incubator for awhile. At that point I realized that something was very serious. The vet has always told me she felt Chilli was a "fraglie" Amazon, due to the fact she is quiet, does not make alot of noise, nor run around like most Amazons do, but I always felt she was just very sweet and quiet. Anyway, I said to the vet (who is one of our best avian vets in the state) "I need to ask you this and I know you will be honest..I know you have always felt she is fragile and also she has been sick alot (with the yeast, almost dying after the second surgery, etc), do you think it is time to think of letting her go"? She put her hand on my shoulder and said "it may be something you do need to think about". I don't think she would have said this had she felt we had a chance. I think she would have at least said "not yet or let's see what is going on", but something on the slide must have red flagged her, plus how Chill looked.
My fear was since there seemed to be so little chance for her that if I left her at the vet she would die overnight and die alone with on one there and think I abandoned her. The last time she almost died after surgery, she did not look nearly this sick and she was almost willing herself to die even then, she would not eat, they had to force feed her> When I went to visit her that time she was laying there like she was dead, but WHEN she saw me she RAN to the front of the incubator and called my name and ate like a pig for me. She had given up until she saw me. So, I knew from how she acted then and that since she was so much sicker acting this time, she would give up and die alone thinking I left her... I asked the vet, "am I doing the right thing" and the vet said "if we brought her back it would be a long road and I can not guarantee she would ever be as she was". She knows how much I love Chilli so I don't think she would have sounded that dire if she felt we had a good chance. So, I made the choice to let her go, so that she would see me last and not be afraid or alone....I could not take the risk she die alone in a incubator and not understand since we had so little chance....I am haunted if I did the right thing, however.
Also, the only thing I changed in her routine was I had started putting one or two drops of natural apple cider vinegar in her water. She actually seemed to really do great with it, but I wonder if anyone knows if that could have HARMED her in anyway? I can't imagine how and it sure would not cause bacteria in her sample of what she threw up would it?
Also, does anyone know what on earth would cause such an overabundance of epithelial cells in her vomit? Even the vet did not know and would not without labs, but Chill was so sick even as it was that we made the decision to let her go and not put her through all that. I just don't know what would come on so fast and if I had some clue I might not feel so haunted, even though the pain would be the same.
I had her creamated so I can get her back, so I did not have an autospy done, as I was so upset I did not think of it. All I thought of was not to let her die alone in a cage...at night with no one there....
Any input is appreciated, no matter how large or small. Also, thanks to all of you over the years that have helped us here.
Fly Free my BEAUTIFUL CHILLI... I love you..............

The only things I can really think of is that with treating yeast infections you are also killing beneficial bacteria. If not replaced, it can result in a bacterial infection. ACV does the same thing, and it can also cause burns because of it's acidity... although I have never heard of this happening as people *DO* put ACV in their birds drinking water (and usually more than just a few drops), it's possible that with an already compromised imune system, that the ACV had a negative effect rather than a good one? Or perhaps she had a dormant bacterial infection that when ACV was added, it killed the good bacterial, allowing for the bad bacteria to run rampant.

I don't know, and these are only guesses. I'm sorry that you lost Chili!

Second guessing yourself is a part of the grieving process. You will question everything you ever did for her. Not all people will live until they are 80 and all birds/animals will not live a full life. Sometimes there are no answers. That's just the way it is. It sounds like her immune system was already compromised and bacteria is an opportunistic bug.

Necropsy would probably have given you some answers but it is too late for that so just feel good about the fact that she was loved. Sometimes that's all we can do.

I've lost 2 birds so I know how you feel; it is a terrible feeling and there are no words that will make you feel better. Only time.


Bev

Any words I could say will not be of comfort but please rest easy knowing I too have been there , and the pain is still fresh after years . Please know you are in our prayers . And that Chili will be at rainbow bridge waiting for you ! She died surrounded by LOVE and COMPASSION . May God comfort you in this time of grief...

I am confused...are you sure that ACV also kills GOOD bacteria? If that is so, then wouldn't it pretty much cause issues in all the people's birds who use it? No one would want to kill off the good bacteria in any bird, so it seems it would be very dangerous to use ACV is if does kill good bacteria. I have not been using any yeast meds on her lately. I only had been using the ACV about a week or less...
Does anyone know this for sure that ACV also kills GOOD bacteria? Thank you for any input. I just find it hard to imagine as it seems it would cause all kinds of issues if it did.
I really need to know so can you clarify? It is really important to me. Thanks. Thank you all for your kind thoughts also.

It's only speculation and something best asked of your avian vet. I would not believe that the ACV would cause any issues, especially in such low doses, but really, without a necropsy, you wont know for sure what the issue is. We can only be thankful that Chili no longer has to suffer and you did the best you could for her.

Thanks for reply, Monica.

I know it is only speculation about Chill, but what I mean is, is it commonly known that ACV also kills good bacteria? Or were you just thinking it might? I just wondered if it is a fact that it kills good bacteria, or if anyone knows for sure. I really need to know and I can not find anything online about if it kills good bacteria...
Anyone have info? Please help

All I know is that ACV kills bacteria. I've heard that GSE (Grapefruit Seed Extract) kills all bacteria, and yet again, I have not heard of any birds having an issue when GSE was put into their water to prevent bacterial growth. ACV is supposedly a good source of *good* bacteria, which is what makes it so healthy, however the "mother" in it, as I understand, is dead yeast and bacterial cells. Therefore, I can't see ACV being an issue, but again, how are we to ever know for sure? Just because 100's of birds have not had any adverse effects to one product, who's to say that another one wont? There's no telling.

I have never heard anything bad about ACV. I have heard negative things about GSE. Until there are studies done, nobody will know for sure. My avian vet once told me she didn't think it would help but believed it wouldn't hurt either.

Bev

I am so sorry to hear of your loss - I still cry about Luna's passing in Dec. I found this web page on ACV - I think it will put you at ease http://www.naturalbird.com/mcwatters/acv_for_birds.htm

I had Luna cremated also - we knew the cause of death so there was no need for a necropsy to be done. Since it happened just before Christmas, it took a couple of weeks to get her remains back. I find it comforting, and upsetting at the same time due to the conditions of her death, and I am glad I had it done.

We did get another bird right away. Luna brought so much joy and love to our lives we decided the best way to honor her was to get another one.

Wishing you peace with your decision - you did the right thing.

Jo

Thank you, that is helpful and I am so sorry about your loss also.

I know there are many people here who know a great deal about birds and have had birds for years and years, so are most of you all saying you do not feel ACV, a few drops in her water could have caused her issues (all that bacteria in the sample she was throwing up, etc)?
I know it may seem like it does not matter now, but it does and I trust your thoughts. Thank you for all who posted. I know we can not know what happened to any individual bird (Chilli) but speaking just in general.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you everyone, you have all been very kind, not just now, but over the years, helping me with her issues. I am having a very, very, hard time with this, as I know we all do when we lose a bird...