Hello Guys
How is everything, I hope you doing good with birds.
Thanks for the people who helped me a lot in this forum regarding the IRN, so now mine is doing well and soon I will approach the breeding season here in (Sudan) Africa, I know many of you guys don’t have knowledge about it, so please any one has any inquiries , you are most welcome.
Back to subject, I have a Lutino IRN Female which is now ready to bread I mean (she reach the breading age), so how possible to mate it with a plum head male?? I know they are different types, actually my friend who owned the Plum head male asked me this when I visited him last week, so please anyone have an idea how it will work and what will be the offspring?.
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IRN and Plum head?
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by MFids on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:51 am
The offspring will be hybrids. They wont be IRN or plum heads, but a mix of the two. Many people are against this sort of hybridization, as it dilutes the genes and changes the species. Many believe that once a hybrid, always a hybrid, and that you can't breed out the hybrid genes. It is therefore possible for hybrid genes to pop up every once and a while in offspring. Having said that, it is possible to breed out the visual signs of a hybrid.
I do not know if there are any health defects in these hybrids (if closely enough related, there should be minimal to none) nor any other issues.
I've only heard of one such hybrid, although I suspect there are others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGeEIh7i_c
I do not know if there are any health defects in these hybrids (if closely enough related, there should be minimal to none) nor any other issues.
I've only heard of one such hybrid, although I suspect there are others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQGeEIh7i_c
Monica & Fids
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from them."
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by Toza on Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:35 am
Thanks Mate,
As you said The Hybrid birds is not preferred for breeding, and most of them will not produce anything like the Hybrid between the Love birds (Fisher Ves Rose). Thank you again and I will keep a head looking for IRN male and PH Female.
As you said The Hybrid birds is not preferred for breeding, and most of them will not produce anything like the Hybrid between the Love birds (Fisher Ves Rose). Thank you again and I will keep a head looking for IRN male and PH Female.
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by alhee on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:27 pm
There are ethical issues about cross-breeding,
as well as practical issues.
1. the extreme side of the ethical issue, is the fear of polluting gene pools,
especially of the long-lived species, such as macaws.
Many of the larger and uniquely colored Asian society finches are hybrids.
Many of the color varieties of the masked lovebirds are hybrids.
The newer colors of moustache and Alexandrine psitacullas are possible hybrids.
2. The practical issue is that often the hybrids are not fertile, or that they are not
nearly as attractive or as unique as the pure species.
Regarding the potential plumhead/IRN pairing ...
The IRN hen is so much larger than the plum male, and she could be a potential danger
to him. IRN hens run a whole gamut of behaviors, from sweet and docile ... to mate killers,
at any point in the courtship and nesting.
The potential female offspring may or may not be fertile. Infertility in hybrid birds
from related species usually affects the female offspring. The hybrid males of the
ringneck family are usually fertile, I think, but quickly become useless in most breeding programs.
as well as practical issues.
1. the extreme side of the ethical issue, is the fear of polluting gene pools,
especially of the long-lived species, such as macaws.
Many of the larger and uniquely colored Asian society finches are hybrids.
Many of the color varieties of the masked lovebirds are hybrids.
The newer colors of moustache and Alexandrine psitacullas are possible hybrids.
2. The practical issue is that often the hybrids are not fertile, or that they are not
nearly as attractive or as unique as the pure species.
Regarding the potential plumhead/IRN pairing ...
The IRN hen is so much larger than the plum male, and she could be a potential danger
to him. IRN hens run a whole gamut of behaviors, from sweet and docile ... to mate killers,
at any point in the courtship and nesting.
The potential female offspring may or may not be fertile. Infertility in hybrid birds
from related species usually affects the female offspring. The hybrid males of the
ringneck family are usually fertile, I think, but quickly become useless in most breeding programs.
- alhee
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by Toza on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:11 am
Interesting and very useful points, by mixing up the genes we are going to produce a mess of offspring, I think this is only work if we want to produce a mutation from the same species (IRN ves IRN) , and I can see the different in size between the IRN and Plum.
But strange I sow in one of my colleague Aviary an American Mustache male being given IRN female, after the first one lost his real mate, I can see the different as well in sizing, last night he called me saying that the male is trying to push the female into the nest box I longer to see them in the nest together, because the male mustache one is more bigger than the IRN female and his beak is so huge and for sure he can harm the female, but if they can mate that’s will be good. Any Idea ?
But strange I sow in one of my colleague Aviary an American Mustache male being given IRN female, after the first one lost his real mate, I can see the different as well in sizing, last night he called me saying that the male is trying to push the female into the nest box I longer to see them in the nest together, because the male mustache one is more bigger than the IRN female and his beak is so huge and for sure he can harm the female, but if they can mate that’s will be good. Any Idea ?
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by MFids on Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:13 pm
The majority (not all) of alexandrine mutations (as far as I am aware) are hybrids of alexandrine and indian ringneck. There's quite a good size difference between the two! These hybrids have been bred for 20 or more years and quite a few breeders may consider the alexandrines "pure" because they were able to breed the hybrids back up to the alexandrine size and shape. I'm not too familiar with the terms, but I think that many are considered pure once the birds are 15/16 or 55/56, even though hybridization was used to create a cross-over mutation. Some breeders (and owners) find this sort of hybridization acceptable, others may not. Some are 100% against (blatant) hybridization but breeding to cross-over a mutation is acceptable.
You can find a list of some psittacula hybrids in the following link
http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... zation.htm
I know even less about the other psittacula hybrids.
There have also been hybrids between mini macaws and large macaws, a *possible* hybrid between a patagonian conure and a B&G, hybrids between pyrrhura conures & large conures (aratingas, nandays and patagonian), scarlet chested parakeet and princess parrot, as well as cockatiel(s) and a galah(s).
Personally, I'm against hybridization, regardless of whether its on a species level or a sub-species. I enjoy seeing the variety of birds out there and how all their colors vary, unfortunately though, many people don't realize what they have, and I'm seeing a lot of hybrid pairs being sold as a same species pair. These pairs are reproducing, resulting in hybrids, and the offspring are being sold as pures. Here in America, I don't think I want to know how many of our supposed pure species are actually hybrids due to ignorance. I do know that we have probably lost a lot of sub-species because they were hybridized with another sub=species or a nominate species... that, or if there are still pure subspecies out there, they are probably being called by another name.
On the flip side, hybrids do intrigue me, and I find it a learning experience! It's one way to find out how closely, or not closely, related some of these species are. Granted, if you have no reason to hybridize, and you *can* find mates for a pure species, I feel this would be more appropriate. You also must think, is there a demand for hybrids in the market? Who's buying them? Pet owners or breeders? If there is a market for hybrids, then I can see this as a possible reason to create hybrids. If there's no market for hybrids, then you may want to reconsider producing such hybrids.
From the psittacula website, it sounds like the moustache x ring neck hybrids aren't very common. Since your colleague sounds intent on creating these hybrids, I must wish him the best of luck! I hope the hybrids he breeds are healthy birds, since not all hybrids are born healthy or without physical deformities.
You can find a list of some psittacula hybrids in the following link
http://home.wanadoo.nl/psittaculaworld/ ... zation.htm
I know even less about the other psittacula hybrids.
There have also been hybrids between mini macaws and large macaws, a *possible* hybrid between a patagonian conure and a B&G, hybrids between pyrrhura conures & large conures (aratingas, nandays and patagonian), scarlet chested parakeet and princess parrot, as well as cockatiel(s) and a galah(s).
Personally, I'm against hybridization, regardless of whether its on a species level or a sub-species. I enjoy seeing the variety of birds out there and how all their colors vary, unfortunately though, many people don't realize what they have, and I'm seeing a lot of hybrid pairs being sold as a same species pair. These pairs are reproducing, resulting in hybrids, and the offspring are being sold as pures. Here in America, I don't think I want to know how many of our supposed pure species are actually hybrids due to ignorance. I do know that we have probably lost a lot of sub-species because they were hybridized with another sub=species or a nominate species... that, or if there are still pure subspecies out there, they are probably being called by another name.
On the flip side, hybrids do intrigue me, and I find it a learning experience! It's one way to find out how closely, or not closely, related some of these species are. Granted, if you have no reason to hybridize, and you *can* find mates for a pure species, I feel this would be more appropriate. You also must think, is there a demand for hybrids in the market? Who's buying them? Pet owners or breeders? If there is a market for hybrids, then I can see this as a possible reason to create hybrids. If there's no market for hybrids, then you may want to reconsider producing such hybrids.
From the psittacula website, it sounds like the moustache x ring neck hybrids aren't very common. Since your colleague sounds intent on creating these hybrids, I must wish him the best of luck! I hope the hybrids he breeds are healthy birds, since not all hybrids are born healthy or without physical deformities.
Monica & Fids
"I am willing to make the mistakes if someone else is willing to learn
from them."
"I am willing to make the mistakes if someone else is willing to learn
from them."
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Re: IRN and Plum head?
by Toza on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:47 am
Yes me also I wish him a good luck, and for sure am going to pass this useful information to him so he can get to know exactly what all is about. And from my understanding the Alexandrine is not so common here in Sudan, it’s only a couple of pairs among the breeders , may be due to the weather or even the distance I don’t know, and most of the pairs available lost their females, so this makes the choices even difficult. But the strange thing is that we have a common mustache parakeet very different in size and shapes very small even smaller than the IRN in size, maybe I can place a photo for them next time, I have pair here so I just need to get a photo of it and place it you guys and you can see the different.
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